The witchhunt continues...

[icehorse]

Some women who are really women have beards, should we prevent them (authentic women) using the ladies restroom because they have facial hair in case it leads to the assault of other women?

I lean towards being a utilitarian. From that perspective I would say "perhaps". The condition you're mentioning is probably very rare. So if we did create such a rule, it would unfairly discriminate against an extremely small subset of people. If we use your logic, we could say that we must change all the doors in the world to accommodate those few individuals who are over 7 feet tall.

But the reality is that no rules or laws work perfectly all the time. The situation I'm discussing is - sadly - from rare. Rape and assault are all too common. So if we said something like "people with full facial hair must use special restrooms", we would inconvenience very few people and make millions of people just a little bit safer. That's a no-brainer for a utilitarian

(And for my literal minded opponents, the above was just a thought experiment, not a law I would actually propose.)

 

[danieldemol]

I lean towards being a utilitarian. From that perspective I would say "perhaps". The condition you're mentioning is probably very rare. So if we did create such a rule, it would unfairly discriminate against an extremely small subset of people. If we use your logic, we could say that we must change all the doors in the world to accommodate those few individuals who are over 7 feet tall.

I have to duck to get under many doorways, that is a minor inconvenience. Tell me i can't use the urinal and your up for a fight because that is a major disadvantage.

But the reality is that no rules or laws work perfectly all the time. The situation I'm discussing is - sadly - from rare. Rape and assault are all too common. So if we said something like "people with full facial hair must use special restrooms", we would inconvenience very few people and make millions of people just a little bit safer. That's a no-brainer for a utilitarian

(And for my literal minded opponents, the above was just a thought experiment, not a law I would actually propose.)

Well at least we seem to agree that restrooms need redesign.

Are rape and assault "all too common" in ladies restrooms? If that is the case it's already time to call in the engineers in my opinion.

 

[We Never Know]

Sorry for the confusion, that's not the point I'm trying to make..

Recently some trans women have decided that it's okay to be a trans woman and still look like a man. For example, it's now not uncommon for a trans woman to have a beard.

For the most part I don't have any problems with that. But the issue is that if people who LOOK like men are normally seen entering women's restrooms, that makes it easier for men who want to assault women to do so as well.

Here's one.... Lives as a woman but still a man IMO. No hormone treatment, no nothing but choosing to live as a woman. Which bathroom would you suggest this person use?

"This is Alex Drummond. She's a 51-year-old psychotherapist and photographer from Cardiff.

Six years ago, Drummond started living as a woman and kept her awesome bushy beard. She also decided not to opt for hormones or surgery."

This Trans Woman Kept Her Beard And Couldn't Be Happier

"I'm widening the bandwidth of how to be a woman." Alex Drummond talks to BuzzFeed News about why she kept her beard after transitioning – and how others react.

www.buzzfeed.com

 

[icehorse]

Here's one.... Lives as a woman but still a man. No hormone treatment, no nothing but choosing to live as a woman. Which bathroom would you suggest this person use?

"This is Alex Drummond. She's a 51-year-old psychotherapist and photographer from Cardiff.

Six years ago, Drummond started living as a woman and kept her awesome bushy beard. She also decided not to opt for hormones or surgery."

Good for Alex, sincerely.

Accept for at least the one concern I have. I'm sure Alex is a fine individual, but she(?) is - IMO - putting a lot of women at risk.

 

[We Never Know]

Good for Alex, sincerely.

Accept for at least the one concern I have. I'm sure Alex is a fine individual, but she(?) is - IMO - putting a lot of women at risk.

I think that person has no business being in the women's bathroom.

 

[SomeRandom]

I'm going to amend my previous statement. Not a lot but a bit. I read the "Study" more carefully. First of all, the link is to a summary of the study, not the study itself. And the link within the link is also not to the actual study. If I'm wrong about that, if either of those things are meant to be the actual study, then it's no study at all. Both links appear to be summaries.

The summaries themselves are vague and a bit ambiguous. I suspect (not sure), that the study had to do with whether trans women themselves represent a danger to women and girls in public restrooms. Whether they do or not, that is NOT the point I'm making. So it could be that I'm misinterpreting the summary of the study? But I really do think the summary is vague and ambiguous.

But for the sake of discussion, let's say it really IS about the point I'm making. In that case, the problem is that - as I've been saying - it's a relatively new thing for trans women to sport beards. So even if the study factored that in - which is NOT mentioned at all - it's too new to have collected any meaningful data.

I believe that leaves us stranded with nothing more than out common sense

Well that I’ll agree with you over, honestly.
I’m not really good at reading scientific studies properly. I’m more of a “literature nerd” than a science one lol.

But it is early days so I think I just took the ambiguity to be a reflection of that and in need of more data, which we might be able to collect in a few years.

Hopefully?

That said, I don’t think this really goes against my original overall point.

There is literally nothing stopping sexual predators from using the restrooms as a point of attack and it has been that way for centuries. Like do you honestly think that rapists give a damn whether or not trans people use the bathroom of their choice? Really? Think logically now.
A rapist will attack there irregardless of societal views on the issue. Is it easier due to social acceptance?
How? Like actually how?

Is there a magical forcefield stopping men from entering the women’s that has now been undone or something?
Some might stare if you enter the women’s sporting a beard, but that’s hardly a stopping force. It’s notable for making folks uncomfortable and we can study the subtle effects that has on individuals, but that’s about it

I myself have entered the men’s room multiple times in public, due to various factors (ahem the term “women’s emergency” has been a known joke among women for actual generations at this point. And it’s for the reasons you’re probably thinking of right now.)
I got a couple of odd looks and that’s it. It was beyond easy to do and no amount of hand wringing can change that either way.

There is literally nothing stopping people from using the facilities opposite to their sex, so it’s not like support for “correct gender use” really has that much affect on the results either way. If it was made illegal I sincerely doubt rapists who already flout the law to, well rape, will give a damn.

Logically speaking, looking at the current reported results, the hysteria surrounding trans folks using the bathroom has caused far more harm to the cis gendered community than a mere unfulfilled hyperbolic prophecy over supposed increases in sexual abuse specifically due to trans acceptance.
Again let us think this through logically. This sounds like rhetoric used by the so called “religious right,” does it not? In fact I’d be shocked if similar rhetoric wasn’t used in arguments against non segregated bathrooms from back in the day. Like remember when that guy used real life anti segregation rhetoric in an argument against gay marriage (used as an illustration about how eerily similar one was to the other.)


You want to talk common sense?
How about looking at two specific scenarios and figuring out which is the least harmful?
Hysteria over trans people peeing causing folk to harass random cis women and girls for perceived slights in gender presentation. Which we have documented cases for now, on social media. Which I linked
And the other being trans people going to use a restroom that draws the least amount of social attention, that typically being the restroom that aligns with their gender (trans men using the men’s and trans women using the women’s.)
Since the goal of trans individuals is to fit in with the perceived gender identity that aligns with theirs. So they will make active choices to present one way or another. Again sporting beards or simply having pronounced makeup. Because they make the effort, not a lot of folks may even register that they are trans to begin with (passing.)
And that’s not even taking into account gender non conformists who may even be cis (biologically speaking) and of course hermaphrodites and psudeomites. Where are they supposed to go? The outhouse round back?
Seems to me that common sense would suggest the former scenario produces far more “unnecessary suffering” (insofar as it causes insecurity and perhaps affects minors a bit more harshly, admittedly) and the latter is rather innocuous in the long run.

If we’re talking sexual predators, well they will attack in restrooms whether or not trans people use the one aligned with their gender. Societal acceptance doesn’t make this easier because I sincerely doubt someone who already flouts the law and is predatory, looking for a victim, even cares one iota over said acceptance. It’s not like they’ll pull back a little just because society deems it unfavourable

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Do you agree that men raping and assaulting women is a real issue and that it's realistic for women to be cautious and concerned about men being violent towards them?

Yes. Do you agree transwomen aren't really a threat or danger?

 

[icehorse]

Yes. Do you agree transwomen aren't really a threat or danger?

I still get the sense that you don't understand my point so...

1 - I do NOT think transwomen are any more a threat than average.
2 - I DO think it's a bad idea to normalize people who look like men going into women's restrooms.

My concern is about violent men, not transwomen, violent men. And the sad reality is that violent men will almost certainly take advantage if they can enter women's restrooms and no one will question them.

 

[icehorse]

If we’re talking sexual predators, well they will attack in restrooms whether or not trans people use the one aligned with their gender. Societal acceptance doesn’t make this easier because I sincerely doubt someone who already flouts the law and is predatory, looking for a victim, even cares one iota over said acceptance. It’s not like they’ll pull back a little just because society deems it unfavourable

First off, I appreciate that we're talking about the same point, thank you!

Second, there is a numbers game here that we have to consider. Yes, what I'm proposing makes life less convenient for transwomen. But there aren't that many transwomen.

OTOH, if you're wrong about what slows down violent men, then you're putting the vast majority of women at higher risk.

And, I think you're wrong. I think many crimes are crimes of opportunity. Certainly I would agree that if a particular offender has his mind made up, nothing will stop him. But I think that for many offenders being violent can be more of a spontaneous act.

We're told (at least in the US), that when you go away on vacation, little things you do - like having a few lights go off and on using timers - can dissuade burglars. I think little changes can impact criminal activities.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I still get the sense that you don't understand my point so...

1 - I do NOT think transwomen are any more a threat than average.
2 - I DO think it's a bad idea to normalize people who look like men going into women's restrooms.

My concern is about violent men, not transwomen, violent men. And the sad reality is that violent men will almost certainly take advantage if they can enter women's restrooms and no one will question them.

The issue with two is that gets hard to tell. Like women with PCOS. They sometimes grow noticeable facial hair, they do get harassed by anti-trans **** ants who are so sure she was born a man. They also do that to butch lesbians but that's not a medical condition.

 

[YmirGF]

Do you agree that men raping and assaulting women is a real issue and that it's realistic for women to be cautious and concerned about men being violent towards them?

Yes, it is a real issue. Yes, women should be vigilent and cautious. Frankly, when I am in a public space I am not paranoid, but I am always on the lookout for anything unusual because I am a senior citizen and could be preyed upon. I am at a bit of a loss to explain why having biological males entering traditionally female spaces would NOT cause concerns.

 

[icehorse]

The issue with two is that gets hard to tell. Like women with PCOS. They sometimes grow noticeable facial hair, they do get harassed by anti-trans **** ants who are so sure she was born a man. They also do that to butch lesbians but that's not a medical condition.

Have you read what I've written from the utilitarian perspective in this thread?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Have you read what I've written from the utilitarian perspective in this thread?

I don't see much utilitarianism but instead I see fearmongering.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

The lie that transgender women are women and transgender men are men. A woman is an adult human female, a man is an adult human male. A transgender woman is an adult human male and a transgender man is an adult human female.

Assuming you mean that they are claiming to have changed biologically, who's telling that lie? I haven't heard it. What I have heard is "I feel like a woman (or man) and wish to be addressed and otherwise treated like one." Is that a lie? Is accommodating that also lying for you?

You're not the only one calling this lying, but I don't see lies there.

Incidentally, cultures evolve as do their lexicons. If enough people choose to call transgendered biological males women, it becomes a new definition of and usage for the word beside the older one. A baby was originally a newborn human being, but all kinds of metaphorical definitions can be found below that one, like a baby turtle. Imagine the objection, "Lie! Your turtle is not a newborn human." Or "I'm the baby of the family." "Lie!" or "That classic Camaro is his baby." "Lie!" Ridiculous, right?

Linguistic proscriptionists typically call a new usage solecism long after it's in general usage. Once it was an error to conflate oral (spoken as opposed to written or signed for the deaf) and verbal (using words whether spoken or written as opposed to pantomime). Now, they're used synonymously, and calling that wrong is itself wrong.

I can identify as a walrus, have a pet walrus, have multiple walrus figurines, toys and walrus stuffed animal.... I will never be a walrus however much I would like to identify as one.

You also used the word lie in this context. Where's the lie in you wanting to be treated like a walrus if you're not claiming that you are biologically pinniped? I don't know how to treat a walrus other than steer clear of it, but if they had preferred pronouns and you wanted me to use them with you, I would. Yes, it would awkward, but I would do it for you if it mattered to you. Golden Rule, ya know.

I view it as demonically inspired. It's unhealthy for people to invite a spirit into their life because it is more than likely a demonic spirit.

I view it as unhealthy to invite an idea like that into your worldview.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Good for Alex, sincerely.

Accept for at least the one concern I have. I'm sure Alex is a fine individual, but she(?) is - IMO - putting a lot of women at risk.

See, this statement exposes quite a lot about you. You literally think that this one human being, with no evidence whatsoever other than the fact that they are biologically male (and have a beard?) IS A THREAT TO WOMEN.

This is all you have.

 

[Patrick66]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1680713557241896961

 

[Patrick66]

Assuming you mean that they are claiming to have changed biologically, who's telling that lie? I haven't heard it. What I have heard is "I feel like a woman (or man) and wish to be addressed and otherwise treated like one." Is that a lie? Is accommodating that also lying for you?

You're not the only one calling this lying, but I don't see lies there.

Incidentally, cultures evolve as do their lexicons. If enough people choose to call transgendered biological males women, it becomes a new definition of and usage for the word beside the older one. A baby was originally a newborn human being, but all kinds of metaphorical definitions can be found below that one, like a baby turtle. Imagine the objection, "Lie! Your turtle is not a newborn human." Or "I'm the baby of the family." "Lie!" or "That classic Camaro is his baby." "Lie!" Ridiculous, right?

Linguistic proscriptionists typically call a new usage solecism long after it's in general usage. Once it was an error to conflate oral (spoken as opposed to written or signed for the deaf) and verbal (using words whether spoken or written as opposed to pantomime). Now, they're used synonymously, and calling that wrong is itself wrong.

You're doing somersaults and backflips to convince yourself, and others, that a man can turn into a woman and vice-versa. I believe that you are under the influence of a demonic delusion.

 

[icehorse]

I don't see much utilitarianism but instead I see fearmongering.

I have been bending over backwards to be civil to you. What I get in exchange is this cocksure smugness that smacks of some deep seated insecurities perhaps?

In any case, when you're interested in a civil debate in good faith, let me know.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I have been bending over backwards to be civil to you. What I get in exchange is this cocksure smugness that smacks of some deep seated insecurities perhaps?

In any case, when you're interested in a civil debate in good faith, let me know.

You make a crap claim and then try to act like you didn't say it when called out and shown you are wrong.
Own up to your ****.

 

[SomeRandom]

First off, I appreciate that we're talking about the same point, thank you!


.

No problem

Second, there is a numbers game here that we have to consider. Yes, what I'm proposing makes life less convenient for transwomen. But there aren't that many transwomen.

I don’t know if I necessarily agree with this line of thinking, if that makes sense?
Because I don’t think this is just a numbers game and even if it were. We do try our best to accomodate smaller numbered groups in society. Not everyone uses a wheelchair but buildings often have ramps to accomodate for this. Like a minority is still an active participant in society
We can’t just shrug and go, well, you just have to be inconvenienced because there’s not many others like you. Too bad too sad.
That’s seen as backwards and inhumane!


Besides, unless you station a guard to inspect people’s genitals at the door, how is this supposed “only cis women using the women’s” rule even enforced? Like honestly? I doubt it was ever before

Plus passing trans men (they exist too) would scare the ever loving crap out of every other woman if they use the “biologically correct” restroom. In this case that would in fact be the women’s. I mean wouldn’t you do a double take if a trans man, with a full on beard, beer gut and other masculine features passes you by in the women’s restroom?
How does that help all women?

Seems to me that ironically enough by expecting everyone to use the “biologically correct” restroom, this would only result in bearded heavily masculine presenting people openly using the women’s restroom. Since you know, trans men exist?
Which would, according to your line of reasoning, just make it easier for men to enter the women’s. Therefore this would actually make it easier for rapists to wander in to commit awful crimes.

Since trans men typically wish to go out of their way to present as specifically male. I mean that’s sort of the whole point of transitioning to begin with, right? Beards and manly features for days in the women’s as a direct result of this “rule.”
And indeed the opposite would be true. Trans women who are known to go out of their way to specifically present outwardly as feminine, would be forced to use the men’s room. That just reeks of opportunities for attack if you ask me. Men witnessing what appears to be a woman or at least very feminine presenting person in the men’s restroom? Could you imagine the reactions?

And again, by driving up hysteria regarding trans women (which is a small number, as you yourself point out) negatively affects cis gendered women who may not look explicitly traditionally feminine, for whatever reason. So all that’s really happening is random folks who may even feel insecure about their appearance are being accosted by people who are overreacting to a small minority of people existing. How does this help anyone?

And, I think you're wrong. I think many crimes are crimes of opportunity. Certainly I would agree that if a particular offender has his mind made up, nothing will stop him. But I think that for many offenders being violent can be more of a spontaneous act.

We're told (at least in the US), that when you go away on vacation, little things you do - like having a few lights go off and on using timers - can dissuade burglars. I think little changes can impact criminal activities.

Crimes are indeed often crimes of opportunity. But like I said, a criminal who is willing to flout the law by assaulting a woman isn’t going to be bothered whether or not trans people are allowed to use the facilities. Because why would they? Like honestly? Where’s the deterrent that supposedly exists for them now? Like talk me through it.
Because again, they’re looking for victims who may be alone and vulnerable, I doubt they care what is or isn’t socially acceptable in the restroom to begin with.

Actually said criminal may even be a bit more selective in their victim of choice if trans women were using the women’s.
Since if that’s socially acceptable, the attacker might become a little warier due to not wanting to attack someone with the umm “wrong equipment” in their eyes, let’s just say.

Of course this is mere speculation on my part. But homophobic attitudes may overlap strongly with the mindset that allows a person to rape another. Not saying that’s the case all the time, but homophobia and misogyny do tend to go hand in hand a lot of the time. And very strong misogyny does seem to be a factor in sex crimes, involving men assaulting women. (Or at least that’s my understanding. But like I said, I’m probably not the best at reading scientific studies.)
If that’s the case the attacker will want to err be sure not to accidentally “go homo”
If you follow?
Either that or attack someone for just being or even just perceived as trans. That’s also a sad reality that we should be addressing in society. But perhaps that’s for another thread