The "woke" witchhunt turning on its own.

[Shadow Wolf]

Stand up urinals... Are they sexist or not?

You haven't yet answered that question.

Its "yes" or "no"

I have answered that. It's not my fault you aren't being very honest in portraying what I said.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I have NEVER said all drag shows are sexually provocative. Never. All I have said is that what is in the videos I posted is wrong. Sexually provocative drag shows in children's schools are wrong. Why cannot anyone at least say that. A man lifting up his dress, spreading his legs out with a tip jar in between them at a school is wrong. I think you think it is wrong as well but you are too afraid to say so because you don't want to be called names by others. Stand up for what is right and who give a flying F what others say about it. I don't care if people are trans or do drag shows, or are gay etc.

But I have said that -- directly to you! Now, what is your take on using that to make laws to ban all shows in which men dress as women where children might even possibly catch a glimpse? That's really what this culture war is about for the religious right -- and I think you should know that.

So, is that right or wrong?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I am upset about trans people.

What upsets you about trans people?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I never claimed to be special. Your mistake.
I want clarification. Thats it. So back off!
Go be a professional somewhere else.

Here it is.
Rights are never objective or universal in an absolute sense.
They are social constructs, so if you claim that a limited group of humans have a right over greater group of people than the limited group themselves, you are in effect claiming that the limited group is special.
You have in effect done so in some of your posts. That is all fair and well, because you can do so, but the problem is that now you have made a standard that can also be used against you.

Now you can avoid that problem by going general and claim that a given right is based on universal good, but then it has to be that, universal.
The problem for this debate is that you try to argue than in effect being straight is universal. But it is not.
In ever more general terms we are playing normal as universal for all humans. But there is for all human behavior not universal same normal behavior for all cases of happy.
In effect for the words same, similar but not exactly the same and/or different as in effect not the same, we all run into the problem is that we are as humans not always the same and in some cases we could accept different, but you in advocate for same where I advocate for different.

And now it comes. I am still a human down to if you harm me, you harm me and so in reverse, but I don't actually harm you for being different as in effect neuro diverse for not just LGBTQ+. You just don't like it, because you in effect treat your case as a special positive and mine as a special negative.

 

[Revoltingest]

It's not an advantage women have that men are more likely to do something stupid that will get them killed and less likely to go to a doctor to get things checked out, which also shaves off a few years from the average life expectancy for men.

You presume to know about epidemiology.
I know you're guessing, treating one factor
as the total picture.
Typical feminist....seeing women as mere victims
with no control over their own lives. You're victims
of The Patriarchy...unable to admit their own privilege.
Yet women vote for the politicians they accuse of
enforcing "The Patriarchy".
Another problem with feminists: Seeing people not
as individuals, but as groups. They blame all men
for subjecting themselves to the draft because they're
in The Patriarchy. This ignores the injustice of voters
& the public (including women voters) imposing it
upon unwilling men.
Feminists....stop whining....stop expecting privilege...
...take action for yourselves. And remember....
Civil rights & equality are for all, not just women.

There....fun rant...feel better now.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

You presume to know about epidemiology.
I know you're guessing, treating one factor
as the total picture.
Typical feminist....seeing women as mere victims
with no control over their own lives. You're victims
of The Patriarchy...unable to admit their own privilege.
Yet women vote for the politicians they accuse of
enforcing "The Patriarchy".
Another problem with feminists: Seeing people not
as individuals, but as groups. They blame all men
for subjecting themselves to the draft because they're
in The Patriarchy. This ignores the injustice of voters
& the public (including women voters) imposing it
upon unwilling men.
Feminists....stop whining....stop expecting privilege...
...take action for yourselves. And remember....
Civil rights & equality are for all, not just women.

There....fun rant...feel better now.

Well, yes. I get your point. The problem is that in a sense there are no individuals as just singular independent individuals in the strong metaphysical sense.

 

[Revoltingest]

Well, yes. I get your point. The problem is that in a sense there are no individuals as just singular independent individuals in the strong metaphysical sense.

So metaphysics says there are no individuals, eh.
What a load'a bunk.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

So metaphysics says there are no individuals, eh.
What a load'a bunk.

Well, it is a bit more complicate than your in effect dualism of X is Y and not Z versus X is Z and not Y.
But as always since you are in part trained on the objective as an engineer and I am trained on the objective, social and/or individual as down to a sometimes complex not one factor context, we do it differently as per nature and nurture. And that is for the parts not just individual.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

I have never seen a high school halftime show like that.

I have, but maybe purity culture isn't so much a thing around here as it is around there.

Also, I don't object to any child knowing that LGBTQ people exist. If you want to address that then ok, if you just want to question my motives we are done.

I absolutely question your motives, because you've been attempting to deny and illegitimize the experience of LGBT people, not listen to them about why they object to something like banning drag shows full stop, or the the don't say gay bill. Which you become offended to even calling it that even though people have explained multiple times why they do, that the loose way terms are defined within the bill allow it to be used broadly to prevent people from talking about ANYTHING related to LGBT issues in classrooms, including personal relationships, by people who want LGBT people to go back in the closet using 'think of the children' as the excuse to push them there.

And as for the T specifically:

Acceptance of the gender they are born as. Didn't this used to be the treatment? Treating a condition with concepts that are contradictory is not helpful. Like:

1. They say that gender is a social construct while promoting that a person can be trapped in the wrong body.
2. How can gender identity be unchangeable with a changing social construct of gender?
3. If gender identity is innate, how can it be fluid?
4. If gender identities such as man and woman are objective enough to be an identity how can there be a spectrum?
5. Apart from having a male body what does it feel like to be a man?
6. Our feelings don't determine anything else objectively about us such as height, age, ethnicity etc. why is it different with gender?

No, this did not used to be the treatment nor has it been the treatment for anyone with body dysmorphia or pretty much anything else. Unless you're talking 'treatment' by church owned establishments then yes. 'Just pretend you aren't trans' would be the treatment plan.

1. Gender being a social construct doesn't mean that there aren't physiological or psychological things we identify as being part of that social construct. There's a lot of nuance in the intermingling of gender identity and expression which includes culture, psychology, sociology and physiology. 'Wrong body' gender dysphoria will differ across cultural lines because standards of femininity will change across cultural lines. Certain traits we characterize as masculine or feminine don't exist the same in other cultures and peoples. (and in fact there's a lot of parallels with feminine beauty standards forming to exclude black women in the US, but that's a talk for another time.)

2. It isn't. Next question.

3. It isn't. Next question.

4. It isn't. The only thing that qualifies identifying as a woman is the identifier, with no external criteria that is applicable across the board. Because there are no unifying physical, psychological, mental or even genetic characteristics which unify everyone who is a woman, even among cis women. Nothing about being a woman is monolithic. That said, there are averages in expectations that some people want to conform more to, and others want to conform less to.

5. Being a man is also not monolithic.

6. Height and age are describing simple physical qualities. Gender isn't. (Heck sex isn't either, as sex is a bimodal system mistaken for a binary, but that's a different subject. Also neither is ethnicity.)

 

[Shadow Wolf]

0You presume to know about epidemiology.
I know you're guessing, treating one factor
as the total picture.

That's basic psychology 101. Truly, it is. Men are more likely to engage in high risk, thrill seeking behavior. Not all, of course, but enough to reduce the average lifespan a bit. Men are also less likely to go to the doctor. Again, that's basic human psychology, and a factor that has conditions worsening and turning terminal. Add in that men are more likely to suffer from heart disease amd you have your reasons.

 

[metis]

Stand up urinals... Are they sexist or not?

An inanimate object cannot be "sexist".

 

[Father Heathen]

An inanimate object cannot be "sexist".

Sounds like either a straw man or radical fringe view that isn't shared by any significant or sane segment of society.

The only rational argument against urinals would be efficient use of limited space.

 

[Father Heathen]

What upsets you about trans people?

It's wierd how they obsess over other people's genitalia, rather than minding their own business.

 

[metis]

It's wierd how they obsess over other people's genitalia, rather than minding their own business.

And it's just a reflection of the Pub's "culture wars" nonsense especially pushed by Fox and numerous other right-wing media.

 

[Father Heathen]

And it's just a reflection of the Pub's "culture wars" nonsense especially pushed by Fox and numerous other right-wing media.

Most of the culture wars is conservatives pursuing straw men with torches and pitchforks.

They protest drag shows, etc. "for the kids", but whenever a sex abuse incident appears on the news, it's usually priests, youth pastors, etc. and never drag queens. So if they were genuinely concerned for children, they're be protesting churches instead.
"For the children" is a cheap, manipulative, dishonest tactic. It's loaded BS.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

An inanimate object cannot be "sexist".

I would argue as symbols it's possible for an inanimate object to be sexist. A Nazi or Confederate flag on themselves never can be when removed from the history and context that makes them symbols of hatred, but symbols are a very important part of our communications and cultures.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Most of the culture wars is conservatives pursuing straw men with torches and pitchforks.

They protest drag shows, etc. "for the kids", but whenever a sex abuse incident appears on the news, it's usually priests, youth pastors, etc. and never drag queens. So if they were genuinely concerned for children, they're be protesting churches instead.
"For the children" is a cheap, manipulative, dishonest tactic. It's loaded BS.

Yup. They'd hate the church more than the Feminazis of the RW bestiary.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

It's wierd how they obsess over other people's genitalia, rather than minding their own business.

It's probably because their god has a bad aim and is the original source of "kill them all and let me sort them out."

 

[SkepticThinker]

Oh.... I see. You want a day, a month, a parade etc but no one else should have them because it would take the "special" out of yours.

Plenty of groups have them. The common denominator is groups that have traditionally been marginalized, demonized and denied basic human rights.
If white straight people have been traditionally and routinely marginalized, demonized and denied basic human rights, then have at it! Have a pride day for them. But that's not really the case now, is it?

 

[SkepticThinker]

I don't care for pride parades anymore than I do KKK marches.
Yes I know they are completely different groups.
I won't jump in their trains. But thats me

"They are completely different groups" .. .and yet you directly compared the two.
Why?