Theists: What would a godless universe look like?

[Valjean]

Like the one that you're purporting now?

My beliefs are bolstered by empirical evidence and extensive evidence, færie tales are not.

materialistic as in our physicality - no spiritual dimension.

Must spirituality include belief in a god?

No need for fairy tales - no other creature on the planet requires them to survive.

Hear hear! So how is your theology not a færie tale, if it's unfounded, ie: not based on objective evidence?

 

[The Hammer]

But we are aware that we exist, working on learning.

So are they?

 

[Polymath257]

No, you're incorrect - truth is the hallmark of growth, development and productivity, and overall soundness and health.
No need for fairy tales - no other creature on the planet requires them to survive.

materialistic as in our physicality - no spiritual dimension.

The 'spiritual dimension' is, I believe, purely a result of our imaginations. It can help with social coherence in medium to large groups, but increases inter-group hostility.

 

[Polymath257]

You're looking at the surface of the physical, in order to find the spiritual????
Try reading between the lines.

What lines? Yes, I look to what can be seen and understood to describe what I consider to be mythology.

 

[Polymath257]

Like the one that you're purporting now?

Like religions.

 

[LuisDantas]

No…
Why would there be any order or patterns, without an intelligence causing it?

It just happens that way in nature. Random elements tend to align and interact in predictable and even fully organized ways due to their inherent properties and the environment where they happen to be.

Raindrops acquire a roughly spherical shape due to their movement and air friction. Snowflakes organize into shapes with six sides. Sand and dust spread with the wind and sendiments into available lower depths.

More significantly for our purposes, chemical reactions are very predictable, as are electromagnetism, heat and cold effects, and gravitational pull.

That is probably a significant part of the appeal why pantheism for many people. From an aesthetical standpoint it can make lots of sense.

Of course, if you presume a conscious will shaping those events, odds are that you will be a theist of some kind. Atheists generally do not.

That was the premise behind SETI, was it not?

There were many premises behind SETI. Among them, that we would have to work with a very restricted timeframe and an incredibly limited packet of information.

That is very different indeed from what we find in a whole planetary surface, atmospheric cover and oceans alongside millions of years.

 

[Polymath257]

Can't be that, since only information can be transferred with "spooky action at a distance" as Einstein called it, not energy. However I like the ideas!

Actually, information can’t be transferred either. What moves is the correlation of probabilities. And that moves slower than light.

 

[Polymath257]

Data (ie information ) is energy imo. Data contains photons which contains an electrical charge which is itself energy. Data is an idea.

No, data does not contain photons. Photons can carry information, but so can all particles.

No, photons do not contain electrical charge. In fact, they are electrically neutral.

No, electrical charge odds not energy. They are very very different things. Energy in this context is the product of charge and electric potential, just like it is also the product of distance and force.

The universe itself is "Energy" in various states (solid liquid gas plasma, dark light, etc). So transmitting data (ie communicating w/a Deity) at a distance is entirely plausible imo.

No, energy is a property of particles, but the particles are not made from energy any more than they are made from momentum.

No energy transfers faster than light. No information transfers faster than light.

 

[Polymath257]

It just happens that way in nature. Random elements tend to align and interact in predictable and even fully organized ways due to their inherent properties and the environment where they happen to be.

Raindrops acquire a roughly spherical shape due to their movement and air friction. Snowflakes organize into shapes with six sides. Sand and dust spread with the wind and sendiments into available lower depths.

More significantly for our purposes, chemical reactions are very predictable, as are electromagnetism, heat and cold effects, and gravitational pull.

That is probably a significant part of the appeal why pantheism for many people. From an aesthetical standpoint it can make lots of sense.

Of course, if you presume a conscious will shaping those events, odds are that you will be a theist of some kind. Atheists generally do not.



There were many premises behind SETI. Among them, that we would have to work with a very restricted timeframe and an incredibly limited packet of information.

That is very different indeed from what we find in a whole planetary surface, atmospheric cover and oceans alongside millions of years.

More basically, physical things have properties. Because of those properties, they attract and repel other physical things that have their own properties. This attraction and repulsion naturally and spontaneously produces structure.

No consciousness required. No grand plan needed. Just things having properties.

 

[Little Dragon]

Actually, information can’t be transferred either. What moves is the correlation of probabilities. And that moves slower than light.

Chip-to-chip quantum teleportation and multi-photon entanglement in silicon - Nature Physics

Four single-photon states are generated and entangled on a single micrometre-scale silicon chip, and provide the basis for the demonstration of chip-to-chip quantum teleportation.

www.nature.com

Scientists used quantum entanglement to instantly transfer data between two chips

In a paper recently published in Nature magazine, researchers claim to have transferred data using the measurement of the states of quantum particles that are connected via quantum entanglement. Quantum entanglement is the physical phenomenon in which two entangled particles instantly reflect a...

www.notebookcheck.net

Mind find this interesting Polymath, the 1st link, a Journal, requires institutional access, the 1st link was referenced in the 2nd link which is more descriptive. So I might disagree with you on this one!
After all, we don't have to know what the "transmitting" entangled particle's quantum state was or is, all we have to know is that it has changed. To send information, instantly, theoretically.

 

[Little Dragon]

You're looking at the surface of the physical, in order to find the spiritual????

If something exists within our universe, then it is physical. If it is physical, then it is measurable and testable. How do we observe or measure or test for the spiritual, if it exists?

 

[Polymath257]

Chip-to-chip quantum teleportation and multi-photon entanglement in silicon - Nature Physics

Four single-photon states are generated and entangled on a single micrometre-scale silicon chip, and provide the basis for the demonstration of chip-to-chip quantum teleportation.

www.nature.com

Scientists used quantum entanglement to instantly transfer data between two chips

In a paper recently published in Nature magazine, researchers claim to have transferred data using the measurement of the states of quantum particles that are connected via quantum entanglement. Quantum entanglement is the physical phenomenon in which two entangled particles instantly reflect a...

www.notebookcheck.net

Mind find this interesting Polymath, the 1st link, a Journal, requires institutional access, the 1st link was referenced in the 2nd link which is more descriptive. So I might disagree with you on this one!
After all, we don't have to know what the "transmitting" entangled particle's quantum state was or is, all we have to know is that it has changed. To send information, instantly, theoretically.

Unfortunately, my institution doesn't have access (thanks to funding issues). From the abstract, though, it looks like they are trying to do quantum tunneling of entangled states. This is different than using entanglement to communicate since tunneling is known to not happen instantaneously.

In entanglement, the two entangled particles have correlated properties. But to reveal that correlation requires measuring *both* particles and comparing the results. At each 'end', things look random.

It is more similar to having coin that is flipped many times with the top result and bottom result sent to different locations. At both ends, the sequences of results looks completely random. But, if you bring the results together, you can see that they are opposite in all cases.

The problem is that we cannot control the flip without destroying the entanglement.

PS: If you can get access to that article, I would be happy to read it and do a better analysis.

In tunneling, the results move slower than light from one location to another, but in a way that is not allowed classically.

 

[The Hammer]

No, data does not contain photons. Photons can carry information, but so can all particles.

No, photons do not contain electrical charge. In fact, they are electrically neutral.

No, electrical charge odds not energy. They are very very different things. Energy in this context is the product of charge and electric potential, just like it is also the product of distance and force.

No, energy is a property of particles, but the particles are not made from energy any more than they are made from momentum.

No energy transfers faster than light. No information transfers faster than light.

Mmk. Back to the drawing board.

 

[Ostronomos]

More basically, physical things have properties. Because of those properties, they attract and repel other physical things that have their own properties. This attraction and repulsion naturally and spontaneously produces structure.

No consciousness required. No grand plan needed. Just things having properties.

Hello?

I see you are still bent on proving atheism.

What atheists fail to understand is that they only cling to a superficial view of reality. One with no God. When in fact reality goes much deeper than we think. To the point where the separation between inner and outer realities converge and feedback becomes the new reality.

This is known as "stepping out of the matrix". For those of you who lack a childlike sense of wonder.

Please stop clinging to the superficial and know that the human brain resonates between supernatural and natural levels of reality.

Thank you.

 

[Little Dragon]

Unfortunately, my institution doesn't have access (thanks to funding issues). From the abstract, though, it looks like they are trying to do quantum tunneling of entangled states. This is different than using entanglement to communicate since tunneling is known to not happen instantaneously.

In entanglement, the two entangled particles have correlated properties. But to reveal that correlation requires measuring *both* particles and comparing the results. At each 'end', things look random.

It is more similar to having coin that is flipped many times with the top result and bottom result sent to different locations. At both ends, the sequences of results looks completely random. But, if you bring the results together, you can see that they are opposite in all cases.

The problem is that we cannot control the flip without destroying the entanglement.

PS: If you can get access to that article, I would be happy to read it and do a better analysis.

In tunneling, the results move slower than light from one location to another, but in a way that is not allowed classically.

Yes, I will have to ask a pal, who works for a university and will have access to peer review sources.

I wonder if it is logically possible for indirect measurement of quantum state changes, that do not break entanglement?

 

[Polymath257]

Hello?

I see you are still bent on proving atheism.

No, I just don't see any evidence any other way.

What atheists fail to understand is that they only cling to a superficial view of reality. One with no God. When in fact reality goes much deeper than we think. To the point where the separation between inner and outer realities converge and feedback becomes the new reality.

Really? Can you prove or even give evidence for these claims?

This is known as "stepping out of the matrix". For those of you who lack a childlike sense of wonder.

Oh, I have a sense of wonder and awe. I just don't see that as proving the existence of a deity.

Please stop clinging to the superficial and know that the human brain resonates between supernatural and natural levels of reality.

Can you prove this? Or is it just another empty claim? What evidence do you have that this is true?

Thank you.

 

[Little Dragon]

What atheists fail to understand is that they only cling to a superficial view of reality. One with no God.

What's the difference? Your reality is the same as mine plus magic invisible sky beings...

 

[Polymath257]

Yes, I will have to ask a pal, who works for a university and will have access to peer review sources.

I'm sort of annoyed my university doesn't have this.

I wonder if it is logically possible for indirect measurement of quantum state changes, that do not break entanglement?

There is a thing called a weak measurement that need not break entanglement, but only gives probabilistic results.

 

[Little Dragon]

Mmk. Back to the drawing board.

I am glad you listened to someone you trust.

 

[Little Dragon]

There is a thing called a weak measurement that need not break entanglement, but only gives probabilistic results.

Ah sounds promising! Interesting...