There are no errors in the Qur'an

[Redemptionsong]

"THIS book is the Holy Book of God, of celestial Inspiration. It is the Bible of Salvation, the Noble Gospel. It is the mystery of the Kingdom and its light. It is the Divine Bounty, the sign of the guidance of God."

And

"As to the position of Christianity, let it be stated without any hesitation or equivocation that its divine origin is unconditionally acknowledged, that the Sonship and Divinity of Jesus Christ are fearlessly asserted, that the divine inspiration of the Gospel is fully recognized, that the reality of the mystery of the Immaculacy of the Virgin Mary is confessed, and the primacy of Peter, the Prince of the Apostles, is upheld and defended." (Bahá'í)

These are some of my beliefs of Christianity and Jesus.

loverofhumanity, I cannot doubt your sincerity or decency. Nor can I say much about the belief of Bahais, since I know very little; but I do feel qualified to comment on books that I have studied, and pored over, prayerfully, for years.

The conclusion that I have reached, and that I would like to discuss, is that the Qur'an and Bible are not compatible. The attempt to make them compatible involves either altering the text of the one, or of the other. Understandably, Muslims, and I assume Bahais, are keen to show that the Qur'an is inerrant whilst the Bible is unreliable.

I believe the evidence is available to prove otherwise. I know that this kind of persuasion is not easy, because it involves more than cold logic. There is pride at stake, and sometimes lives too.

 

[loverofhumanity]

loverofhumanity, I cannot doubt your sincerity or decency. Nor can I say much about the belief of Bahais, since I know very little; but I do feel qualified to comment on books that I have studied, and pored over, prayerfully, for years.

The conclusion that I have reached, and that I would like to discuss, is that the Qur'an and Bible are not compatible. The attempt to make them compatible involves either altering the text of the one, or of the other. Understandably, Muslims, and I assume Bahais, are keen to show that the Qur'an is inerrant whilst the Bible is unreliable.

I believe the evidence is available to prove otherwise. I know that this kind of persuasion is not easy, because it involves more than cold logic. There is pride at stake, and sometimes lives too.

Thanks for your kind words.

Both the Bible and Quran are part of our core beliefs and in our Houses of Worship throughout the world we read from both these Holy Books.

Our position is that the apparent inconsistencies are not scriptural but emanate from the literal interpretation of scriptural passages.

So there does exist an interpretation that unites them just as there are those ones which divide. So we don't see the contradictions others see through their own interpretations. We see unity and oneness instead.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Our position is that the apparent inconsistencies are not scriptural but emanate from the literal interpretation of scriptural passages.

If you don't mind, I would like to examine the idea that an inconsistency can be exegetical and have nothing to do with the literal reading of the text.
When I read scripture the first thing I do is read the literal word. An appreciation of its meaning may not always be clear, but at least you have words to work with. Metaphors, similitudes and symbolism may demand that we look further than the literal interpretation, but that does not automatically mean that the literal wording has no truth or value.
Now let me apply this to some scripture. The Bible has some interesting things to say about Abraham and his two sons, Ishmael and Isaac.
In Genesis 21:12 God said to Abraham, 'for in Isaac shall thy seed be called'. Later, in Genesis 22:16, Isaac is called 'thy son', 'thine only son'. Although Abraham had fathered two sons, Ishmael and Isaac, only Isaac is described as his son. In Genesis 21:18-21 Ishmael is described as a 'lad'. He also dwelt in the wilderness of Paran (north west Arabia?) and was later married to a woman from Egypt. God was happy to say, 'I will make him a great nation'. At a literal level these words are important. They tell a story that has historical relevance.
When it comes to interpretation, the danger is that people take it upon themselves, thinking themselves wise beyond God, to provide a explanation of the scripture. But what I have discovered is that God has left nothing for the faithful to fear. The answers to the scriptural mysteries lie in the scriptures themselves. It is purely a matter of diligently uncovering them. God has left nothing to chance.
The story of Abraham is full of meaning, explained by the Word. What other Father would be prepared to make a sacrifice of his Son? Why did Abraham travel to Mount Moriah (Jerusalem) to make the sacrifice?
By weaving the scriptures together God has made them impossible to destroy. We find scripture repeating phrases and reminding us of the stories of the ancient past. They all have a meaning in the present reality of Christ as Lord and Saviour.

 

[loverofhumanity]

If you don't mind, I would like to examine the idea that an inconsistency can be exegetical and have nothing to do with the literal reading of the text.
When I read scripture the first thing I do is read the literal word. An appreciation of its meaning may not always be clear, but at least you have words to work with. Metaphors, similitudes and symbolism may demand that we look further than the literal interpretation, but that does not automatically mean that the literal wording has no truth or value.
Now let me apply this to some scripture. The Bible has some interesting things to say about Abraham and his two sons, Ishmael and Isaac.
In Genesis 21:12 God said to Abraham, 'for in Isaac shall thy seed be called'. Later, in Genesis 22:16, Isaac is called 'thy son', 'thine only son'. Although Abraham had fathered two sons, Ishmael and Isaac, only Isaac is described as his son. In Genesis 21:18-21 Ishmael is described as a 'lad'. He also dwelt in the wilderness of Paran (north west Arabia?) and was later married to a woman from Egypt. God was happy to say, 'I will make him a great nation'. At a literal level these words are important. They tell a story that has historical relevance.
When it comes to interpretation, the danger is that people take it upon themselves, thinking themselves wise beyond God, to provide a explanation of the scripture. But what I have discovered is that God has left nothing for the faithful to fear. The answers to the scriptural mysteries lie in the scriptures themselves. It is purely a matter of diligently uncovering them. God has left nothing to chance.
The story of Abraham is full of meaning, explained by the Word. What other Father would be prepared to make a sacrifice of his Son? Why did Abraham travel to Mount Moriah (Jerusalem) to make the sacrifice?
By weaving the scriptures together God has made them impossible to destroy. We find scripture repeating phrases and reminding us of the stories of the ancient past. They all have a meaning in the present reality of Christ as Lord and Saviour.

Revelation 5: 1-5

Does it say any Christian can unseal the meanings? Or you or I?

"And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. 2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? 3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon."

It says no one in heaven or on earth. No priest or layman.


4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book,neither to look thereon. 5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

Only the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David no one else.

That's what the Bible states. I cannot break that law and go into personal interpretations whatever method I use as only the Lion is authorised to unseal the meanings no one else.

 

[Notanumber]

This researcher knows a lot about Islam and the Quran.

ISIS is only following their religion.

Education is a marvellous thing!

 

[Tumah]

Then you've missed the point,Tumah. The consistency of the prophetic message over generations is what makes the Bible unlike any other book. As stated at the start of my last post, one man can easily provide a false testimony, but maintaining the coherence of a false testimony over hundreds of years is beyond the ingenuity of one man. This applies to the Tanach, let alone the the two testaments combined.

This claim requires proof. I see no reason why it should be difficult to maintain a consistent message over generations, when every succeeding generation has the works of the previous generation with which to build on.

And as regards Jesus not appearing in the Tanach, you know very well that as a Christian I see the whole Word, from Genesis through to Revelation, as focused on the person of Christ. I'm happy to discuss that with you on another thread.

That's not the point. You claim that Muhammad doesn't appear in the Bible. Presumably you mean by either name or prophecy. Jews make the exact same claim to you. And just like you've managed to make up some crazy answers, they have crazy answers too. So you really have no justification to make this argument to them.

Another point, that I did not raise in the last post, is that of Muhammad's prophetic office. As I understand, all the literary prophets of the Bible were Israelites, beginning with Moses. How does Muhammad qualify?

I don't see how that argument makes sense. There were numerous Israelite prophets that didn't write down their prophecies or that weren't kept. The ones that we have are the ones that the Jews deemed worthy of keeping. Adam, Noah and Balaam were non-Jewish prophets. Can you prove Balaam didn't write down his prophecies?

 

[Baroodi]

None of these points contradict Nobel Quran at all. Quran challenges the polytheist Arabs at that time according to how far they can take in and digest. Imagine 15 centuries back in time and Quran was telling them about a round globe, what they would had said then to prophet Mohammed(peace be upon him). Mad, crazy,idiot etc all such stuff that they already said although he ask them not to worship statues but God and to aim for virtues and to keep away from commting sins . A high hill will look as a pyramid but when you are on top of it you see it flat all around if you are at its centre. And this is true for the earth as well . We as humans came to know it as a sphere after a long debate.

 

[loverofhumanity]

This researcher knows a lot about Islam and the Quran.

ISIS is only following their religion.

Education is a marvellous thing!

There are very violent verses in the Bible that need elucidation. Anyone?

Psalm 137:9

Happy is the one who takes your babies and smashes them against the rocks!

1 Samuel 15:3

Thus says the LORD of hosts, 'I will punish Amalek for what he did to Israel, how he set himself against him on the way while he was coming up from Egypt. 3Now go and strike Amalek and utterly destroy all that he has, and do not spare him; but put to death both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.'"


Quran

Murder is not permitted in the Quran. Only self defense.. This sura was revealed in Medina. The varying translations all have the same meaning.

2: 190 And fight for the religion of GOD against those who fight against you; but transgress not by attacking them first, for GOD loveth not the transgressors.

George Sale

2:190 And fight for the cause of . God against those who fight against you: but commit not the injustice of attacking them first: God loveth not such injustice:

J M Rodwell


2:190 Fight for the sake of God those that fight against you, but do not attack them first. God does not love aggressors.

N J Dawood


2:190 Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors.


Marmaduke Pickthall

2:190 AND FIGHT in God’s cause against those who wage war against you, but do not commit aggression –for, verily, God does not love aggressors.

Muhammad Assad

[2:190] You may fight in the cause of GOD against those who attack you, but do not aggress. GOD does not love the aggressors.

Rashad Khalifa

 

[loverofhumanity]

None of these points contradict Nobel Quran at all. Quran challenges the polytheist Arabs at that time according to how far they can take in and digest. Imagine 15 centuries back in time and Quran was telling them about a round globe, what they would had said then to prophet Mohammed(peace be upon him). Mad, crazy,idiot etc all such stuff that they already said although he ask them not to worship statues but God and to aim for virtues and to keep away from commting sins . A high hill will look as a pyramid but when you are on top of it you see it flat all around if you are at its centre. And this is true for the earth as well . We as humans came to know it as a sphere after a long debate.

The majority of people in the Christian world and Muslim world want peace and prosperity. Some small minority of bigots on both sides just want to drag us into another war. They have no good intentions except to create hatred.

We should ignore them and continue to try and create unity and peace between Muslim and Christian and we will succeed.

 

[Shad]

None of these points contradict Nobel Quran at all. Quran challenges the polytheist Arabs at that time according to how far they can take in and digest. Imagine 15 centuries back in time and Quran was telling them about a round globe, what they would had said then to prophet Mohammed(peace be upon him). Mad, crazy,idiot etc all such stuff that they already said although he ask them not to worship statues but God and to aim for virtues and to keep away from commting sins . A high hill will look as a pyramid but when you are on top of it you see it flat all around if you are at its centre. And this is true for the earth as well . We as humans came to know it as a sphere after a long debate.

You are repeating a pop-culture flat earth myth.. The Greeks figured out the world was "round" centuries before Islam. They used math and basic observations.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Revelation 5: 1-5

Does it say any Christian can unseal the meanings? Or you or I?

"And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. 2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? 3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon."

It says no one in heaven or on earth. No priest or layman.


4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book,neither to look thereon. 5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

Only the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David no one else.

That's what the Bible states. I cannot break that law and go into personal interpretations whatever method I use as only the Lion is authorised to unseal the meanings no one else.

This passage, and what follows in the rest of the chapter, tells us about a particular book, which cannot be the scriptures. The scriptures were intended to be opened, and studied (verse 3 says no man was able to open the book with the seven seals, or look thereon).

In Deuteronomy 32:32,33, it says 'Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin - ; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. 33: And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.'

Now let me ask this question: Who is it that knows who is in the book of life? Only he that is able to judge all mankind. And who might that be?

 

[loverofhumanity]

This passage, and what follows in the rest of the chapter, tells us about a particular book, which cannot be the scriptures. The scriptures were intended to be opened, and studied (verse 3 says no man was able to open the book with the seven seals, or look thereon).

In Deuteronomy 32:32,33, it says 'Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin - ; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. 33: And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.'

Now let me ask this question: Who is it that knows who is in the book of life? Only he that is able to judge all mankind. And who might that be?

This is why Christianity has been divided into nearly 40,000 sects because they have sought to interpret authoritatively, passages which they were told weren't open to interpretation.

It says in Revelation Who was found worthy to unseal the books and that's not you nor I, nor the priests, pope, bishops or clergy.

 

[Redemptionsong]

This is why Christianity has been divided into nearly 40,000 sects because they have sought to interpret authoritatively, passages which they were told weren't open to interpretation.

It says in Revelation Who was found worthy to unseal the books and that's not you nor I, nor the priests, pope, bishops or clergy.

It doesn't say 'books', it says 'book'; and this book is the same book mentioned in Deuteronomy.
True, the only one found worthy to open the book of life, with the names of those saved, is the LORD!

We are given the scriptures that we might learn and come to a knowledge of the TRUTH. Only Jesus Christ, the Word of God, is able to judge us because only he is perfectly holy.

John 5:39 'Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they that testify of me.'

2 Peter 1:20, 'Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost'

God provides the interpretation within the scriptures, which is why Jesus said that they cannot be broken. The problem is, were we to add the Qur'an to that collection of writings, we would no longer have an unbroken scripture.

 

[Redemptionsong]

You claim that Muhammad doesn't appear in the Bible. Presumably you mean by either name or prophecy. Jews make the exact same claim to you.

I don't believe that the two (Muhammad and Jesus Christ) can be compared.

Maybe you could tell me who your shepherd is? Which scripture do you use to confirm that?

 

[loverofhumanity]

It doesn't say 'books', it says 'book'; and this book is the same book mentioned in Deuteronomy.
True, the only one found worthy to open the book of life, with the names of those saved, is the LORD!

We are given the scriptures that we might learn and come to a knowledge of the TRUTH. Only Jesus Christ, the Word of God, is able to judge us because only he is perfectly holy.

John 5:39 'Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they that testify of me.'

2 Peter 1:20, 'Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost'

God provides the interpretation within the scriptures, which is why Jesus said that they cannot be broken. The problem is, were we to add the Qur'an to that collection of writings, we would no longer have an unbroken scripture.

My correction and apologies. the plural was referring to seals not Books . Seven seals.

Daniel 12:4

But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

So the books are sealed right up until the time of the end according to Daniel.

 

[Tumah]

I don't believe that the two (Muhammad and Jesus Christ) can be compared.

Of course you don't. You're a Christian and your Bible says that he does appear in Tanach. Same problem they have.

Maybe you could tell me who your shepherd is? Which scripture do you use to confirm that?

G-d (Psa. 23:1). I use Jewish Scriptures to confirm it.

Crazy, no? I religion that doesn't rely on a different religion's Scriptures! Who would have thought that's possible?

 

[Redemptionsong]

So the books are sealed right up until the time of the end according to Daniel.

Again, it doesn't say 'books'.
Are you suggesting that any attempt to understand the scriptures is doomed to failure? Then why would God inspire them in the first place?

 

[Redemptionsong]

G-d (Psa. 23:1). I use Jewish Scriptures to confirm it.

So, you give me a starting point. You believe that your G-d is your shepherd. But who is your G-d?
Please explain Ezekiel 37:24 and Ezekiel 34:23. [Written 400 years after King David]

 

[Redemptionsong]

Tumah, here's another passage, from your own scripture, you might like to explain. Isaiah 61: 1,'The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me;' Who is 'me'?

 

[Tumah]

So, you give me a starting point.

Sure.

You believe that your G-d is your shepherd. But who is your G-d?

My G-d is the One, indivisible, body-less, Creator of the world, the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob who gave Moses the Written and Oral Torah on Mt. Sinai.

Please explain Ezekiel 37:24 and Ezekiel 34:23. [Written 400 years after King David]

Those verses are speaking about the messiah. Whereas previously in Eze. 34, G-d acts as the Shepherd, in verse 23 He hands the shepherding over to the messiah. Presumably because as other messianic prophecies foretell, there will be peace and happiness in the world and we will be redeemed from our exile. So we won't need G-d's special Divine providence that the previous 15 verses speak about anymore. Then it will just be a matter of keeping the nation on the correct track, which is what 37:24 explains.