There is no evidence for God, so why do you believe?

[ElishaElijah]

That explains everything. You were living a miserable life

Yeah that’s right, “ the party life” that Hollywood pushes. A wasted life with no future.

 

[ElishaElijah]

You feel it was a deity because you have never done this in a secular way

And you have no idea or clue what you’re talking about. You know this, how?

 

[Subduction Zone]

And you have no idea or clue what you’re talking about. You know this, how?

We are rather sure that it was not a deity because other people with other deities have done the same. And yet these deities contradict each other rather strongly.

 

[ElishaElijah]

We are rather sure that it was not a deity because other people with other deities have done the same. And yet these deities contradict each other rather strongly.

Yeah you’re positive, correct? You know how I feel?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Yeah you’re positive, correct? You know how I feel?

Did I make your mistake?

 

[Sheldon]

joelr said: ↑
You feel it was a deity because you have never done this in a secular way

And you have no idea or clue what you’re talking about. You know this, how?

He's pointing out that many people achieve exactly the same profound change in their lives in a purely secular way. This suggests that your belief your change can only be assigned to a deity is flawed. You are conflating correlation with causation.

And of course as has been explained other theists who believe in very different religions and deities, make the identical claim you have made, and again this undermines the claim to neutral observers.

 

[Sheldon]

Yeah you’re positive, correct? You know how I feel?

No, how you feel is not relevant to his point, that others make the identical claim you have, and feel as you do, but for a different deity and religion is the point he is making, this undermines the claim to any neutral observers, and again people have made the same profound changes to their lives as you have, without any theistic or religious belief. I even know some such people, have met spoken to and been friends with them. Now this demonstrates that neither the belief in, nor the deity itself, is required for the profound change you describe, which again undermines your claim to any neutral observer.

 

[ElishaElijah]

He's pointing out that many people achieve exactly the same profound change in their lives in a purely secular way. This suggests that your belief your change can only be assigned to a deity is flawed. You are conflating correlation with causation.

And of course as has been explained other theists who believe in very different religions and deities, make the identical claim you have made, and again this undermines the claim to neutral observers.

Making your same comments over and over still doesn’t change the fact that you are wrong, you don’t know for sure, as has been explained, my testimony may have some similarities to others, there is a major difference that you’re conveniently ignoring about the Holy Spirit. You weren’t there for what happened, you didn’t witness the before and after or the last 30+ Years.
So you can say, I don’t believe you but that’s about it. I can say from my end you are wrong 100%.
One thing I can say for sure and can’t deny is that God does indeed keep His promises, a very present help in time of need.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

He's pointing out that many people achieve exactly the same profound change in their lives in a purely secular way. This suggests that your belief your change can only be assigned to a deity is flawed. You are conflating correlation with causation.

Like me, for example. I managed to turn my life around and I began to heal emotionally only after I disavowed my belief in God and renounced my Christian faith. Believing in God and being a Christian was what made my life miserable, but I changed my life for the better by disavowing my belief in and faith in God. I understand that what I'm saying is only anecdotal evidence, just as when devout Christians share their positive stories about having God in their lives. My point is that I finally realized my belief and faith in God was an emotional crutch, but I chose to give that up and make my life better. IMO, my personal experience of making my life better on my own without faith in God greatly validates Penn Jillette's point that people don't need God in their lives to be better human beings.

 

[ElishaElijah]

No, how you feel is not relevant to his point, that others make the identical claim you have, and feel as you do, but for a different deity and religion is the point he is making, this undermines the claim to any neutral observers, and again people have made the same profound changes to their lives as you have, without any theistic or religious belief. I even know some such people, have met spoken to and been friends with them. Now this demonstrates that neither the belief in, nor the deity itself, is required for the profound change you describe, which again undermines your claim to any neutral observer.

When posters answer other posters comments I’m just going to assume you all agree and lump you all together in those comments, fair enough?
But what you’re continually missing is the deliverance was not the distinguishing factor with all the others as you say. This is part of my story and how I obtained eternal life and a relationship with God and He gave me His Spirit and I was born again.
What I here you saying is like someone saying God healed their broken arm immediately and you saying so what many arms are healed naturally or by a doctor.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

No, how you feel is not relevant to his point, that others make the identical claim you have, and feel as you do, but for a different deity and religion is the point he is making, this undermines the claim to any neutral observers, and again people have made the same profound changes to their lives as you have, without any theistic or religious belief. I even know some such people, have met spoken to and been friends with them. Now this demonstrates that neither the belief in, nor the deity itself, is required for the profound change you describe, which again undermines your claim to any neutral observer.

Well said. Like me, these people you talk about are also living proof that a person doesn't need rely on the Christian God to turn their life around for the better. I realize that it can be difficult for some devout believers in God to believe and accept, but it's the truth.

 

[ElishaElijah]

Well said. Like me, these people you talk about are also living proof that a person doesn't need rely on the Christian God to turn their life around for the better. I realize that it can be difficult for some devout believers in God to believe and accept, but it's the truth.

It’s not hard to accept, it’s easy and a fact of life. Everyone has their own testimonies in life. Like I said many, many times I have this evidence for myself, everyone needs to get their own. Testimonies are just that, a witness.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

It’s not hard to accept, it’s easy and a fact of life. Everyone has their own testimonies in life. Like I said many, many times have this evidence for myself, everyone needs to get their own. Testimonies are just that, a witness.

I said some believers because I've met a few since I left Christianity who refuse to believe my story about getting better without God. I'd like to apologize to you because I feel like I was rude to you yesterday in my replies to your posts. I hope you'll accept my apology.

 

[ElishaElijah]

I said some believers because I've met a few since I left Christianity who refuse to believe my story about getting better without God. I would like to apologize to you because I was rude to you yesterday in my replies to your posts. I hope you will accept my apology.

Of course and hope for the best for you. A horrible thing happened to you, The pain comes through as you share, I’m sorry you had to go through that.

 

[Sheldon]

Making your same comments over and over still doesn’t change the fact that you are wrong,

That's your subjective claim, not a fact, and wrong about what exactly? It is a demonstrable fact, that the same profound changes you cite as evidence for your deity, happen and are possible without any deity, you just heard someone explain this about their own struggle to make a profound change in their life, and of course others do so and cite a belief in a different religion and deity.

you don’t know for sure, as has been explained,

I never claimed to know, for sure or otherwise, so maybe learn to read before responding with yet another straw man.

my testimony may have some similarities to others, there is a major difference that you’re conveniently ignoring about the Holy Spirit.

That's a subjective claim, not a major difference, and it is irrelevant, you seem determined to miss the point no matter how exhaustively its explained. The claim is what is dubious, because others make the the same claims for profound changes to their lives either with a very different deity and religion, or with no deity at all. This undermines your claim to any neutral observer, including your unevidenced claim about the holy spirit.

You weren’t there for what happened, you didn’t witness the before and after or the last 30+ Years.

It doesn't matter, as I have explained repeatedly such profound changes occur in others who assign their belief in different deities and religions as the cause, and of course ion people who have no theistic or religious belief. not sure why this point needs to be re-explained over and over again?

So you can say, I don’t believe you but that’s about it. I can say from my end you are wrong 100%.

Neatly summed up, all you have is a subjective unevidenced anecdotal claim, and I disbelieve it, as I do all other such claims made by those who cite a different religion or deity as the cause.

One thing I can say for sure and can’t deny is that God does indeed keep His promises, a very present help in time of need.

I don't need to deny this, as it's just a subjective unevidenced anecdote, yet again the point seems to have past you by, it's as if you think repeating the claim makes it a fact. Then ironically you complain when the same flaws in your rationale are repeated.

 

[Sheldon]

Like me, for example. I managed to turn my life around and I began to heal emotionally only after I disavowed my belief in God and renounced my Christian faith. Believing in God and being a Christian was what made my life miserable, but I changed my life for the better by disavowing my belief in and faith in God. I understand that what I'm saying is only anecdotal evidence, just as when devout Christians share their positive stories about having God in their lives. My point is that I finally realized my belief and faith in God was an emotional crutch, but I chose to give that up and make my life better. IMO, my personal experience of making my life better on my own without faith in God greatly validates Penn Jillette's point that people don't need God in their lives to be better human beings.

Well done, kudos for your achievement, and for perfectly illustrating such profound change can be achieved without any deity, which is the point that @ElishaElijah seems determined to ignore.

 

[Sheldon]

But what you’re continually missing is the deliverance was not the distinguishing factor with all the others as you say.

I never said it was, well done on missing the point again.

This is part of my story and how I obtained eternal life and a relationship with God and He gave me His Spirit and I was born again.

That's just an unevidenced subjective claim you keep making, and the profound change you offered as evidence for this belief, has been shown to be achieved and achievable without that belief, or with belief in different deities and religions. Undermining your argument to any neutral observer.

What I here you saying is like someone saying God healed their broken arm immediately and you saying so what many arms are healed naturally or by a doctor.

Hear, not here (sic), and that's a not the worst analogy, since just as we know broken arms can heal without anything supernatural or any deity, so we also know that the profound changes to lives you cited as evidence for your deity's intervention, happens without any such belief, and with different beliefs in different deities. thus undermining your argument.

 

[Subduction Zone]

When posters answer other posters comments I’m just going to assume you all agree and lump you all together in those comments, fair enough?
But what you’re continually missing is the deliverance was not the distinguishing factor with all the others as you say. This is part of my story and how I obtained eternal life and a relationship with God and He gave me His Spirit and I was born again.
What I here you saying is like someone saying God healed their broken arm immediately and you saying so what many arms are healed naturally or by a doctor.

But that is only your belief, and an admittedly irrational one on your part. why would you expect anyone else to give that claim any credence at all?

Tell me, if a Muslim or a Hindu made a similar claim would you believe them? Would that be evidence for Islam or Hinduism?

 

[Sheldon]

It’s not hard to accept, it’s easy and a fact of life. Everyone has their own testimonies in life. Like I said many, many times I have this evidence for myself, everyone needs to get their own. Testimonies are just that, a witness.

Except you keep ignoring that what you cite as evidence has been demonstrated to be possible without any deity, and with belief in different deities. Thus undermining your claim it evidences your deity.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Well done, kudos for your achievement, and for perfectly illustrating such profound change can be achieved without any deity, which is the point that @ElishaElijah seems determined to ignore.

Thank you for your compliment, Sheldon. I truly appreciate it. As I said yesterday in another thread (click here to read my post), I would have given anything to experience God in my life when I was a devout Christian and when I was a child, living in an abusive home and enduring constant bullying in school. I didn't have any of the positive experiences with God that other Christians talk about having in their lives. I didn't have peace and joy in my heart or reassurance that God loves me and I'm going to heaven to be with him after I die. On the contrary, I was absolutely miserable when I was a Christian because I suffered from anxiety and depression. I also had an eating disorder that began when I was 13 and lasted until my early 30s when I finally received treatment for it. I'm better now.

Despite believing in God and seeking him in my life, I was absolutely miserable while I was growing up too. I remember feeling very sad and lonely because God wouldn't help me and no one I knew ever bothered to help me escape the abuse either. I was left alone to endure the abuse and bullying all on my own. I learned to survive on my own, but I always lived in fear while I was at home and when I was in school. There were times when I often feared for my life, and there were times when I was a teenager that I thought about ending my life. These thoughts continued throughout the years when I was a devout Christian, but I never attempted to end my life because I was terrified senseless of going to hell. I already believed that God deeply hated me and had cursed me, so I was scared senseless of what he would do to me when he got his hands on me in hell. I lived in fear that he would strike me down dead anyway.

I know there are Christians who would swear on their lives that God saved them and changed their lives for the better, but I never experienced anything like that during the thirty years I was a Christian or when I genuinely believed in God when I was a child and teenager. I used to feel very resentful of that because I never understood why God would help all of these other Christians, but he never helped me despite all of my desperate pleas and prayers to him. I don't feel the resentment much anymore, but I'll admit that it resurfaces every now and then. It's something that I'm learning how to deal with better and not give it the power to hurt me anymore.