There is no evidence for God, so why do you believe?

[joelr]

Everyone? No. What I said was that in order for a person to be a Christian they had to be born again of the Holy Spirit, this isn’t a belief but something that God gives a person and a real person lives inside of you and you know this.
So if someone says they used to be a Christian but now believe there is no God, then they were never born again and only participated in Christian activities and maybe rituals.
If a person was born again they would know God and decide that He will not be my King or Lord, turn away from God and be considered an Apoststate similar to Judas.

See, you are getting this from a born again group. Real Christians don't say things like that.
First of all, according to the theology you cannot just claim to be "born again" and you will not know when such a thing happens or even if it happened:

John 3:7 - 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

but in 8 he further explains:
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.


which simply means if you buy into this myth you just become born again. If you believe some ritual makes you born again you are mistaken. It takes belief, which I've been saying and now will back up, SAME VERSE:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Not "whosoever is born again", no. That is clearly a nebulous thing that happens as one becomes a believer, as stated in :8. Belief is what gives eternal life, people who live forever are born again.
So your judg-y theology is twisted.

And since it's all about belief many Christians later learn that it's simply not a true story and no longer believe. Your ridiculous thesis that a "true" Christian becomes born again then magically gets an infusion of "God knowledge" that they can never deny is not part of Christian theology, is absurd, is elitist and is even more confirmation bias (now every long term Christian fundamentalist who realizes it's not real and leaves the religion is deemed by you "never born again" is unheard of apologetics that no Christian scholar or high ranking member would support).

It's also known that all Catholics consider themselves born again, -"Not only is the Holy Spirit the agent of our being born again, but also the health and vitality of our ongoing Christian life depend upon his full presence and free activity within us."

And many many catholics have converted to secular life.

 

[rational experiences]

Moses eradication DNA baby genesis. Egyptian sciences murdered sacrificed human life.

Stated. Gone by exodus of DNA removed genetics by life.

Evolution after Moses event ice saviour cooled hot gases. Mass re emerged. Gas body heavens. Ice cooled water oxygenation returned microbes lived. Food source of bio body first.

Sex human gives baby life only its inherited sin. Life factually newly born as reborn.

DNA genesis by wandering asteroid star not falling burning taught had life allowed and babies to be reborn. Healed as returned born again.

I am now reborn. I came back from the dead. I could not form life before now I can. Memory consciousness exactly taught.

Humans can physically heal in atmospheric mass changes seen.

It's been proven real.

Healer medical advice only. I know I studied it. By being a meditative healer assessor psychic. Visionary. Correct advice proven to trust the advice heard.

Advice I hadn't studied nor were intelligent enough to understand or comprehend. Researched the advice.

 

[ElishaElijah]

Because I have been in personal relationships with people in Islam, Hinduism and Christianity and gone through Narcotics anonymous and AA as a support. As well as my own experiences as Christian and as secular.I have seen hundreds of transformations some were the doings of Allah, Krishna, Jesus and many were secular. All were basically the same. The person couldn't have done it without their deity (so they say) or the support of the group or whatever. The stories are truly crazy at times, people dying over and over and revived by narcan, lost all finances, house, children, withdrawing from Heroin, and benzos on a jail floor. Some say some divinity helped and others say they turned their life around by sheer will.

There is no evidence any deity is helping. The evidence is sometimes the belief in a deity can help. Prayer studies also show prayer has no effect.

Well God delivered me and answers many prayers, sometimes the answer is no or wait.
I have a Covenant with God through Jesus Christ and have been born again and He gave me His Spirit who strengthens me, He promised to keep me from stumbling and will present me faultless before Him in the end. He didn’t promise an easy life though, but said His Grace would be sufficient in all circumstances. He has been faithful to that for over 30 years now.
You’re very wrong in your assessment. Maybe that’s what’s wrong, your unbelief and skepticism, don’t see that attitude working with God.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Well God delivered me and answers many prayers, sometimes the answer is no or wait.
I have a Covenant with God through Jesus Christ and have been born again and He gave me His Spirit who strengthens me, He promised to keep me from stumbling and will present me faultless before Him in the end. He didn’t promise an easy life though, but said His Grace would be sufficient in all circumstances. He has been faithful to that for over 30 years now.
You’re very wrong in your assessment. Maybe that’s what’s wrong, your unbelief and skepticism, don’t see that attitude working with God.

Actually you only believe that and do not seem to have any reliable evidence for it. There are those in other religions that make similar claims. Are there claims evidence for their religion?

 

[ElishaElijah]

Actually you only believe that and do not seem to have any reliable evidence for it. There are those in other religions that make similar claims. Are there claims evidence for their religion?

My experience with God is all the evidence I need, not trying to prove or convince anyone but just a witness to the Truth, everyone can decide for themselves.
Don’t see anything you offer worth considering for any kind of help or solutions for this life or for eternity.

 

[Sheldon]

Everyone? No. What I said was that in order for a person to be a Christian they had to be born again of the Holy Spirit, this isn’t a belief but something that God gives a person and a real person lives inside of you and you know this.
So if someone says they used to be a Christian but now believe there is no God, then they were never born again and only participated in Christian activities and maybe rituals.
If a person was born again they would know God and decide that He will not be my King or Lord, turn away from God and be considered an Apoststate similar to Judas.

No true Scotsman fallacy.

 

[ElishaElijah]

No true Scotsman fallacy.

It’s the Bible brother, it’s what God says. If a person claims to be a Christian then that definition is according to the Bible and not some other meaning.
It doesn’t really matter to me either way except if someone thought they were a Christian yet never experienced the intimate relationship with God when He gives you a song in the night or a Word for your situation, or provides for you when you thought all hope was lost, or restoring relationships you had no answer or hope to restore. He is awesome like that.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

No true Scotsman fallacy.

That's exactly what it is. Some Christians also use an Ad Hominem when they claim that an ex-Christian was never a true believer in the first place. And the "It's the Bible" and "It's what God says" excuses are weak arguments because the Bible clearly contradicts itself in its teaching about eternal salvation. For example, Romans 10:9–13 says that if a person declares with their mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believes in their heart that God raised Jesus from the dead, they will be saved. And Ephesians 2:8–9 states, "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast."

But in Matthew 7:21, Jesus stated, "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven," and his sheep and goats parable in Matthew 25:31-46 states the "sheep" were rewarded with eternal life for their good works of feeding the hungry, giving water to people who are thirsty, inviting in a stranger, clothing the needy, and visiting the sick or people in prison. But the "goats" were lambasted by Jesus for not feeding the hungry, giving water to people who are thirsty, inviting in strangers, clothing the needy, and not visiting the sick or people in prison. Jesus cursed them and sent them to eternal damnation. The "goats" lacked the good works to be rewarded with eternal life, in spite of the fact that they were Christians who accepted Jesus as their lord and savior. I think it's clear that Jesus' warning about not doing God's will and his parable contradict Romans 10:9–13 and Ephesians 2:8–9, which state that salvation is a free gift from God and it's not earned by good works.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

If you have been born again you would know what I’m talking about

Every former and present Christian is born again, meaning that they have believed or still do believe Christian dogma, which includes this notion that some transformation has occurred because of that belief. To believe more is to believe that which cannot be demonstrated, something the critical thinker won't do. I once believed as you do, that I was imbued with a Holy Spirit and became a different person. The only difference in me was my willingness to suspend disbelief, that is, to turn off critical thought. Fortunately, I never lost the ability, or else I could not have tunneled out of Christianity. The evidence that Christianity was a false religion was unmistakable. Reason prevailed. That's the process that causes you to say that one was never born again, but that's your religion speaking. It claims that this deity is real and that once you know it, you can never deny it. You add that such a person was never born again, but of course he was. Born again just means Christian believer.

It’s God’s claim, it’s His Spirit, His definition.

Yeah, we know you believe that. But others here don't, and disregard your insistence that only your Bible defines Christian, or that this god and spirit exist to make definitions. Or haven't you noticed? Your definition is rejected by those that reject the authority of its source.

My experience with God is all the evidence I need

Agreed. I would need more. I did need more.

It doesn’t really matter to me either way except if someone thought they were a Christian yet never experienced the intimate relationship with God when He gives you a song in the night or a Word for your situation, or provides for you when you thought all hope was lost, or restoring relationships you had no answer or hope to restore.

It doesn't matter to others what you think a Christian is. Or that you think that a song or a word coming to mind are evidence of an intimate relationship with a god. As I've explained, your words are understood in terms of the skeptic's worldview, not yours, just as you translate what you read into your worldview regarding spirits and being born again. But you seem blind to this fact. You keep making comments as if others shared your beliefs and values when you should know by now that they don't and never will how ever much you insist that you understand what happened to you better than they do.

You keep describing broken people, people with no hope, which is understandable given your history, but what does this religion have to offer people like the ones you are conversing with here?

Also, the recurrent references to hope from Christian apologists is a bit puzzling. How much hope does one need? I've pretty much lost hope for a good future for mankind or America, but that's assimilable. I hope to continue to live a safe, healthy life for a few decades more, but understand that that may not be the case and am at peace with that. I think it comes from the constant repetition in churches that Christianity offers hope that unbelievers don't have as if that were necessary or even a good message for believers. It's good for the religion that its adherents believe that, that lives without God are hopeless, but look around you and see how people are doing without it.

 

[ElishaElijah]

Pretty clear if you don’t have his Spirit you aren’t His so did you give Him back or never had Him in the first place?
“But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:9-11‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

You keep describing broken people, people with no hope, which is understandable given your history, but what does this religion have to offer people like the ones you are conversing with here?

He spoke of broken people and people with no hope, and that's what being a Christian was like for me. Despite my genuine belief in God and my confession of being saved, I was miserable and depressed during the years I was a Christian. I didn't have any feelings of hope or peace from God in my life, despite my unwavering devotion to him. For me, being a Christian was detrimental to my mental, emotional, and physical health. It took me a long time to finally be able to let go of my belief and faith in God and free myself from my emotional dependence on him. It was a very painful experience for me, but it was well worth it to me. It was the best decision that I've ever made for my mental health, and I don't regret it. The only thing I regret is not being emotionally strong enough to renounce my Christian faith years ago. As far as I'm concerned, praying to God was like praying to a brick wall and expecting the wall to answer.

I don't care if some Christians don't believe I was a true Christian or not, because I was a devout Christian. I genuinely believed in my heart that God raised Jesus from the dead, and I declared that "Jesus is Lord," and according to Romans 10:9-13, that's how a person is saved. I know how deeply I believed in God and how devoted I was to him, despite being depressed and always feeling hopeless.

 

[ElishaElijah]

I don't care if some Christians don't believe I was a true Christian or not, because I was a devout Christian. I genuinely believed in my heart that God raised Jesus from the dead, and I declared that "Jesus is Lord," and according to Romans 10:9-13, that's how a person is saved. I know how deeply I believed in God and how devoted I was to him, despite being depressed and always feeling hopeless.

Doesn’t matter to me either but when someone says they were a Christian and now say there isn’t a God, well those 2 statements don’t jibe.

 

[Sheldon]

Well God delivered me and answers many prayers, sometimes the answer is no or wait.

That's just your unevidenced subjective belief though. What you cited as evidence has been demonstrated to be possible without any deity, or with belief in different deities and religions.

You’re very wrong in your assessment. Maybe that’s what’s wrong, your unbelief and skepticism, don’t see that attitude working with God.

Well you're entitle to your unevidenced subjective opinion of course, but you seem to just be repeating the same no true Scotsman fallacy over and over again.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Doesn’t matter to me either but when someone says they were a Christian and now say there isn’t a God, well those 2 statements don’t jibe.

So, based on your Christian beliefs, that's your opinion. I, on the other hand, disagree. I'm not an atheist, but the atheists I've met are ex-Christians, and they have shown that they've given serious thought to whether God (or any god) is real, and whether the Bible and Christianity are worth believing in or not. While I'm no longer a Christian, I still believe in multiple gods and goddesses, and I believe in spirits (human spirits, elemental beings, and other non-human entities). I'll always believe in the supernatural because of my personal encounters with the spirit realm. But I suppose I'm an agnostic now when it comes to believing in the Christian God because I do not believe the authenticity of the Bible anymore. I've done some research into the Bible's veracity, and I've read quite a bit of convincing evidence that shows how the stories about Jesus' life resemble those from pagan traditions that precede the Bible and Christianity (as I mentioned in this thread here). I'm a Wiccan and a Spiritualist now, but I'll never allow myself to become emotionally attached to a religion like I did with Christianity. It makes me sad to think I wasted the majority of my life holding on to my faith and hope in God.

 

[Sheldon]

My experience with God is all the evidence I need,

No different to people claiming they've seen mermaids, or been beamed aboard alien spaceships, now is it.

not trying to prove or convince anyone but just a witness to the Truth, everyone can decide for themselves.

Well I'm not sure that's true, and of course others will have to decide if your subjective unevidenced anecdotal claims are reliable, but if they do, then one wonders on what rational basis they disbelieve identical claims for other deities.

Don’t see anything you offer worth considering for any kind of help or solutions for this life or for eternity.

No one is disputing some people need and find a crutch in religious beliefs, but you seem to be asking people who find your unevidenced claims dubious, to offer an alternative? Which is bizarre reasoning, why would I need an alternative to something I don't believe is true?

 

[Sheldon]

It’s the Bible brother, it’s what God says.

You offered a no true Scotsman fallacy, and I linked an explanation for you.

If a person claims to be a Christian then that definition is according to the Bible and not some other meaning.

And there are 45k varyingly different sects and denominations based on the bible.

It doesn’t really matter to me either way except if someone thought they were a Christian yet never experienced the intimate relationship with God when He gives you a song in the night or a Word for your situation, or provides for you when you thought all hope was lost, or restoring relationships you had no answer or hope to restore.

That's a not true Scotsman fallacy, have you ever heard of the clergy project? I have linked it for you more than once.

 

[Sheldon]

That's exactly what it is. Some Christians also use an Ad Hominem when they claim that an ex-Christian was never a true believer in the first place. And the "It's the Bible" and "It's what God says" excuses are weak arguments because the Bible clearly contradicts itself in its teaching about eternal salvation. For example, Romans 10:9–13 says that if a person declares with their mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believes in their heart that God raised Jesus from the dead, they will be saved. And Ephesians 2:8–9 states, "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast."

But in Matthew 7:21, Jesus stated, "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven," and his sheep and goats parable in Matthew 25:31-46 states the "sheep" were rewarded with eternal life for their good works of feeding the hungry, giving water to people who are thirsty, inviting in a stranger, clothing the needy, and visiting the sick or people in prison. But the "goats" were lambasted by Jesus for not feeding the hungry, giving water to people who are thirsty, inviting in strangers, clothing the needy, and not visiting the sick or people in prison. Jesus cursed them and sent them to eternal damnation. The "goats" lacked the good works to be rewarded with eternal life, in spite of the fact that they were Christians who accepted Jesus as their lord and savior. I think it's clear that Jesus' warning about not doing God's will and his parable contradict Romans 10:9–13 and Ephesians 2:8–9, which state that salvation is a free gift from God and it's not earned by good works.

In a nutshell @ElishaElijah is asserting that anyone that disagrees with him, or arrives at a different conclusion was never a Christian. It's a textbook no true Scotsman fallacy, ipso facto it is irrational by definition.

 

[Sheldon]

Doesn’t matter to me either but when someone says they were a Christian and now say there isn’t a God, well those 2 statements don’t jibe.

This is just subjective bias on your part, have you not heard of the clergy project? This sort of irrational hubris is not uncommon in religious extremists, like some Muslims insisting that any Muslim who abandons their belief be put to death as an apostate, they lack the objectivity to acknowledge that others have the same experience as them, but arrive at a different conclusion.

 

[ElishaElijah]

So, based on your Christian beliefs, that's your opinion. I, on the other hand, disagree. I'm not an atheist, but the atheists I've met are ex-Christians, and they have shown that they've given serious thought to whether God (or any god) is real, and whether the Bible and Christianity are worth believing in or not. While I'm no longer a Christian, I still believe in multiple gods and goddesses, and I believe in spirits (human spirits, elemental beings, and other inhumane entities). I'll always believe in the supernatural because of my personal encounters with the spirit realm. But I suppose I'm an agnostic now when it comes to believing in the Christian God because I do not believe the authenticity of the Bible anymore. I've done some research into the Bible's veracity, and I've read quite a bit of convincing evidence that shows how the stories about Jesus' life resemble those from pagan traditions that precede the Bible and Christianity (as I mentioned in this thread here). I'm a Wiccan and a Spiritualist now, but I'll never allow myself to become emotionally attached to a religion like I did with Christianity. It makes me sad to think I wasted the majority of my life holding on to my hope and faith in God.

Well you are saying you believe in God so that would rule you out because I was addressing the person who said they were a Christian yet don’t believe there is a God at all. This can’t be so because in order for a person to be born again they had to receive God’s Spirit. When a person is born again there is no doubt about God at all, you know He is real and starts talking to you.

 

[ElishaElijah]

@Sheldon #3790
None of your comments make any sense, Christians go by the Bible concerning what it means to be born again. Don’t know how else to tell you you’re arguing about something I’m not.
You were never a Christian, were you? This is for people who said they were Christians, that would be according to the Bible’s definition or they just weren’t and thought they were, maybe there’s a lot of bad teaching out there, seems like it.