This is where liberty dies

[Father Heathen]

Maybe the kneelers need to join others who hate America. They burn the US flag in Iran. Maybe they could align with them.

Oh, another nonsensical, stupid-*** straw man. How nice.

If anyone "hates America", it's those who think obligatory participation in creepy flag idolatry should take precedence over the actual values (rights, liberty, justice, equality, etc.) that the flag is supposed to represent.

 

[columbus]

Please forgive me....I'm just a stupid old fat racist white guy (so I'm told).

But you still look good in that kilt.

Does that help?

Tom

 

[Revoltingest]

But you still look good in that kilt.

Does that help?

Tom

I'd like to lose 20 lbs though.

 

[Father Heathen]

That's the money shot!!

How about we stop conflating sports and nationalism altogether?

Exactly. Just remove the damn anthem entirely from such an unimportant and meaningless event. It is after all just a bunch of grown men chasing balls around, ffs. There is nothing reverent or solemn about it.

 

[David1967]

Society will still say they're unpatriotic while they still fall silent to the tragedy of Charlottesville when someone was killed. David you're a smart person do you not see the disconnect here? Do you not see how socially people think a bunch of Nazi f***s is okay to spew racist vitriol because they're acting within the law, but not okay for athletes to have a unified opinion about police injustice who, by protesting are also acting within the law?

I really do know where you are coming from. (And thanks for the compliment BTW) And I am not even saying that I disagree with what they are kneeling in protest of (at least to an extent). And I will readily speak up for anyones right to free speech whether I agree with them or not. And I would (and have) spoken out against racist idiots before and will again. In this situation my argument is simply from an employer v employee relationship. (nothing to do with the subject matter of the protest). IMHO when a person is on the job, they should be doing what they are paid to do. And its up to the people who sign the paychecks to decide what that job description is. So long as the employer is not breaking the law.
I do respect your opinion. Agree or disagree, you have obviously put a lot of thought into this subject.

 

[Shad]

Inspired by: http://www.profootballweekly.com/20...d-penalty-for-kneeling-before-anthem/a3ss9ts/

Players found on the field kneeling during the national anthem their team may be subjected to a 15-yard penalty. What is sad is this will only create a polarizing environment for professional athletes who feel the need to protest and those who don't. Sad that in Trump's America we can move goal posts when it comes to free speech. I find that free speech is appropriate depending on who you are politically, and racially. For example, I do not see free speech proponents defend NFL players but I do see them come out in defense of the Charlottesville protests. Regardless of the venue of protests, if we're to defend liberty it must not be done by convenience, but by equity.

They are employees of the NFL team they play for. Free speech is not applicable here. If these players were average employee they can easily be terminated. A 15 yard penalty is a slap on the wrist.

 

[David1967]

This they can't do. The NFL had mandated that they must be on the field.

They could change it if they wanted. I was just trying to think of compromise that may possibly work. BTW, outside of this forum I don't keep up with this. I never watch football. It did get me thinking though. How would they accommodate a player whos religious view considered saluting a flag akin to idolatry? Or one could go even further and question why they include the National Anthem at a private sporting event in the first place.

 

[David1967]

Make one up...I know I'd wear one out.

Man, that is some kind of confidence.

 

[columbus]

I'd like to lose 20 lbs though.

I'lI work it off ya.
Tom

 

[Mindmaster]

How does a player kneeling in protest prevent you from watching the game?

Because, I don't pay them to insult our flag or make people who hold that precious upset. In fact, I don't support anyone doing that on the job. They get paid millions and they can't just pay respect to the flag that enables them to live that life? Or better, even if they don't believe in that why not behave honorably just out of respect?

I disagree with many things - organized religion, certain political ideologies, etc.... I still have the tact to not insult people. Why can't they? They just come off like a bunch of rich entitled *** hats with no respect for their fans.

The counter argument is something along the lines of, "Well their beliefs matter too!" Yeah, they do... Just not when they're taking money. It's called professionalism, you curb your **** and pick it up at the end of the shift.

 

[Revoltingest]

I'lI work it off ya.
Tom

My own personal trainer?
People will think I'm a celebrity!

 

[BSM1]

I'lI work it off ya.
Tom

Uh-oh...

 

[David1967]

I'lI work it off ya.
Tom

 

[David1967]

Exactly. Just remove the damn anthem entirely from such an unimportant and meaningless event. It is after all just a bunch of grown men chasing balls around, ffs. There is nothing reverent or solemn about it.

That would end the controversy wouldn't it. I'm not anti anthem by any means, but what exactly does it have to with a ball game?

 

[David1967]

Uh-oh...

Those two need to get a room.

 

[Mister Emu]

As people are insisting "they are paid to perform and entertain us," so why not just do away with the national anthem and get straight to the game?

Because the people who are paying enjoy displays of patriotic nationalism. Particularly this display.

However the enjoyment that you have comes from your favorite team and their hard work and the love you have for that team. The kneeling aspect does not deter you away from the team. If it does, you're not a true fan anyway.

The first part is assuredly true, as to the second... I'm a season ticket holder for a university football program, I traveled thousands of miles to support my team on the road just this last year. I'd say I'm a true fan, and I'm not sure how I would viscerally respond if they were out there kneeling. I have a certain fondness for Old Glory and the national anthem.

But you're not saying anything I haven't heard before.

Neither are you saying anything I haven't heard before. When I first responded I only hoped to come to an understanding of the flaws of conflating supporting free speech and financially supporting a specific person or persons speech whether or not I agree with the content or medium.

Nazis can march, footballers can kneel, and I don't have to be involved in paying them during the time either does their thing. And if they want to do their thing during job hours and enough people don't want to pay for that, well that's the market and them's the breaks.

I notice you consider humans as products and objects instead of living beings with minds of their own.

You didn't notice any such thing, you fabricated it.

Surely this attitude finds its similitude with that of the mob we call Romans who want to be entertain at the gladiators expense.

Hah, I was going to quote that scene too but I thought a previous post was dragging on. NFL is the circus maximus and sports entertainers are exactly the gladiatorial mob pacifiers of the day.

 

[Mister Emu]

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/23582533/nfl-owners-approve-new-national-anthem-policy

NFL announced its new rules regarding the anthem.
- Players can opt to remain in the locker room
- Staff, including players, outside have to stand and "respect" anthem and flag
- Fines for the team if this isn't followed, and fines are allowed to be placed on the players by the club
- ~90MM$ for social justice initiatives

 

[Shad]

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/23582533/nfl-owners-approve-new-national-anthem-policy

NFL announced its new rules regarding the anthem.
- Players can opt to remain in the locker room
- Staff, including players, outside have to stand and "respect" anthem and flag
- Fines for the team if this isn't followed, and fines are allowed to be placed on the players by the club
- ~90MM$ for social justice initiatives

Yet again the League demonstrates it is clueless. None of these address the issue around the protests and why people are upset to the point ratings, attendance and profit projections are dropping.

 

[BSM1]

Yet again the League demonstrates it is clueless. None of these address the issue around the protests and why people are upset to the point ratings, attendance and profit projections are dropping.

Why should they? You think it's the NFL's responsibility for social justice or whatever?

 

[metis]

IMO, this should be ironed out by both the NFL and the player's union working together to try and find an amiable solution.