This is where liberty dies

[David1967]

IMO, this should be ironed out by both the NFL and the player's union working together to try and find an amiable solution.

I would imagine that will be the case.

 

[Phantasman]

Oh, another nonsensical, stupid-*** straw man. How nice.

If anyone "hates America", it's those who think obligatory participation in creepy flag idolatry should take precedence over the actual values (rights, liberty, justice, equality, etc.) that the flag is supposed to represent.

Just take the flag down and quit playing the National Anthem then. Problem solved. Who needs them? They inspired fighting men for centuries. Today, they are just in the way of the new order.

Don't forget to flip a finger at a veteran when you see one.

 

[Father Heathen]

Just take the flag down and quit playing the National Anthem then. Problem solved. Who needs them? They inspired fighting men for centuries. Today, they are just in the way of the new order.

Don't forget to flip a finger at a veteran when you see one.

...aaaaaand even more nonsensical, stupid-*** straw men. Building an army of them, are we?

 

[ecco]

Forget the National Anthem. Everyone should stand and declare:

I pledge allegiance to the President

of the United States of America...​

And to the oligarchy for which he stands...
One Nation, Under the Christian God...
With Pomp and Privilege for the 1%...
In Jesus name, Amen​

 

[Thermos aquaticus]

Just take the flag down and quit playing the National Anthem then. Problem solved. Who needs them? They inspired fighting men for centuries. Today, they are just in the way of the new order.

Don't forget to flip a finger at a veteran when you see one.

No one kneeling during the national anthem is against veterans. They are disappointed in our country in the way law enforcement is allowed to mistreat minorities without any repercussions. There's a big difference between the two. As the old saying goes, "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing". Some players feel that it would be morally irresponsible if they didn't use the platform they have to speak out against evil.

On the league/ownership side of things, do they really want to appear to be squashing protests about social inequalities? They have their own image to consider, and a bunch of rich white dudes telling black players what they are and are not allowed to talk about might not come off looking so good.

 

[Shad]

Why should they? You think it's the NFL's responsibility for social justice or whatever?

No I mean the League is clueless with it's rule and how it is viewing the declining audience. That is information they have.

 

[Phantasman]

...aaaaaand even more nonsensical, stupid-*** straw men. Building an army of them, are we?

Name calling means the debater has nothing of substance to debate with.

I've been called worse. Runs right off.

 

[Father Heathen]

Name calling means the debater has nothing of substance to debate with.

I've been called worse. Runs right off.

...I haven't even called you anything. I'm calling your weak argument a straw man, which is a type of fallacy: Straw man - Wikipedia

 

[Phantasman]

No one kneeling during the national anthem is against veterans. They are disappointed in our country in the way law enforcement is allowed to mistreat minorities without any repercussions. There's a big difference between the two. As the old saying goes, "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing". Some players feel that it would be morally irresponsible if they didn't use the platform they have to speak out against evil.

On the league/ownership side of things, do they really want to appear to be squashing protests about social inequalities? They have their own image to consider, and a bunch of rich white dudes telling black players what they are and are not allowed to talk about might not come off looking so good.

So why kneel? Kneeling is usually a sign of worship or reverence (for something or someone).

It has been an American tradition to stand for the NA. It's merely a shock and awe act.

The freedom and liberty each American has has been earned through blood, sweat and tears (of others before them). To just insinuate "OK we'll take it from here" is usually the response of those who don't see the cost of such freedom. It's a split. Should all people in the stadium kneel? OK, then what?

It's just another act that adds to the deterioration of a once great nation. I grew up in the 50s and 60s. The only people who didn't stand for the NA were people like Communists, against America.

Mine is just a view of a person taught patriotism in a different light. That's all. We didn't have Antifa, BLM, Extremist Muslims, school shooters, Internet, etc, But I see how those things have changed what America is.

I come from a time much more united. And I will admit, that those days are gone.

 

[Phantasman]

...I haven't even called you anything. I'm calling your weak argument a straw man, which is a type of fallacy: Straw man - Wikipedia

So debate. What part of my "argument" is weak? What part is fallacy?

Does it not hurt a veteran who lost a leg in a war to see people disrespecting the same ideology he fought for? Do people have the freedom (and right) to beat up servicemen or shoot them? We have played the National Anthem before every sporting event, and in the Olympics. It was a great feeling of unity to participate in it for decades. What happened?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

If they made such a rule, would you support their rights to do so?

No, as corporations have too much control over their workers as it is. IMO, we need to ditch the term "human resources" and start acknowledging people as people and not a resource.

I think it's funny that when someone has no debate protocols they use the words "straw man".

When you go from peaceful protests that interrupts and interferes with nothing to those who chant "death to America" while burning an American flag, that is erecting a straw man.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

It's clear that the kneeling isn't a good thing for the NFL, no matter what the nay sayers say.

The NFL isn't good for tax payers. If they lose such social significance the NFL Players Club might just be made to start paying taxes, teams may not be able to strong arm cities into new stadiums and flashy new toys, and we might finally be able to firmly and definitively get it out there that there is a link between playing football and head trauma.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Inspired by: http://www.profootballweekly.com/20...d-penalty-for-kneeling-before-anthem/a3ss9ts/

Players found on the field kneeling during the national anthem their team may be subjected to a 15-yard penalty. What is sad is this will only create a polarizing environment for professional athletes who feel the need to protest and those who don't. Sad that in Trump's America we can move goal posts when it comes to free speech. I find that free speech is appropriate depending on who you are politically, and racially. For example, I do not see free speech proponents defend NFL players but I do see them come out in defense of the Charlottesville protests. Regardless of the venue of protests, if we're to defend liberty it must not be done by convenience, but by equity.

The whole purpose was lost a long time ago. It's time to move on. Kaepernic failed. The racists turned it into a patriotic thing.

 

[Father Heathen]

So debate. What part of my "argument" is weak? What part is fallacy?

Does it not hurt a veteran who lost a leg in a war to see people disrespecting the same ideology he fought for? Do people have the freedom (and right) to beat up servicemen or shoot them? We have played the National Anthem before every sporting event, and in the Olympics. It was a great feeling of unity to participate in it for decades. What happened?

They ideology they fought for was one that embodies rights, freedom, equality, and justice, correct? Your silly flag ritual is meaningless if those who partake in it have no interest in actually upholding what the flag is supposed to represent.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I don't pay them to insult our flag

Are they spitting on it? Blowing their nose on it? Wiping their *** with it? They aren't disrespecting anyone or anything. And, certainly, you aren't paying them to stand for the anthem either. Stats, after all, aren't based on how long they could stare at the flag without blinking, how upright they stood during the anthem, and how much they shifted positions.

make people who hold that precious upset.

If people are such snowflakes that they can't stand the site of someone not glorifying, idolizing, and worshiping a piece of cloth they should get upset and learn how to get over it. And even if the players were disrespecting the flag, it's our right as Americans to do so.

 

[Father Heathen]

Are they spitting on it? Blowing their nose on it? Wiping their *** with it? They aren't disrespecting anyone or anything. And, certainly, you aren't paying them to stand for the anthem either. Stats, after all, aren't based on how long they could stare at the flag without blinking, how upright they stood during the anthem, and how much they shifted positions.

If people are such snowflakes that they can't stand the site of someone not glorifying, idolizing, and worshiping a piece of cloth they should get upset and learn how to get over it. And even if the players were disrespecting the flag, it's our right as Americans to do so.

Considering that the flag is supposed to symbolize freedom, preventing people from disrespecting the flag is itself disrespecting the flag. How ironic.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

You are making my case. Thank you.

Making what case? I'm saying you can't fire someone for discrimination but again we are getting off topic. All I'm saying is you cannot be that stupid to think you can fire someone just to fire them.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Well they are talking about requiring them to stand which was the whole point of your thread

If you cared to read (which you didn't), the point of the thread was to discuss owners punishing players for kneeling with a 15 yard penalty for a rule that doesn't exist in the NFL. See the link at the very beginning.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Considering that the flag is supposed to symbolize freedom, preventing people from disrespecting the flag is itself disrespecting the flag. How ironic.

FH, I'm glad you see the point......Why is it that liberals get it and self-professed right wing doesn't?

 

[Epic Beard Man]

But if the NFL owners added one, they would be entirely within their rights.

There must be a vote but if they voted a rule so be it, but it only validates my position regardless of the owners' right.