To all of you fellas

[autonomous1one1]

Quote:
Originally Posted by PureX
[[[When other people treat us badly, it's sort of like being bitten by a toxic snake. The "poison" of that injustice stays in our system and it effects who we become. I believe the only way to rid ourselves of that poison is to learn to forgive both the people and the offense. This is sometimes very hard to do, and takes much time and effort. But until we do it, that poison stays in us, and changes us - not for the better.

Also, forgiveness does not mean that we allow them to hurt us again. That would just be stupid.]]]

I agree.

Agree also, and :bow: bow to the wisdom of PureX. Your agreement, Lawrence, takes you back to the original OP of how best to forgive rather than these latter discussions on whether to forgive or not.

A few of us offer what most consider an extreme position. We have found that one's ego can be put aside (Zenzero above) and the situation handled with love (a..1 above). It becomes a bite without any venom to enter within and can often be overcome by giving considerations to the other person as Luis suggested above. Jesus as Christ said to forgive but he also said to love God, your neighbor, and your 'enemies.' That just about covers everybody.

Best Wishes,
a..1

 

[Draka]

If you've done something wrong to others, and they cannot forgive you, do you feel peace of mind? All of us commits mistakes. Even you. Therefore, we should not choose on whom are we going to give forgiveness. It's for all of us. It's not easy to forgive someone but, "time heals all wounds".

Why are people stuck on the "accidental" thing? Not everything hurtful thing done is by accident you know. Accidents can be forgiven, but purposeful hurting is a whole different subject matter. I'm sorry, but I simply don't find it in me to forgive someone who not only tried to choke the life out of me but laughed while he did it and bragged about it afterward. I really don't think he gives a fat rat's rear quarter if I forgive him or not either.

 

[Renji]

Why are people stuck on the "accidental" thing? Not everything hurtful thing done is by accident you know. Accidents can be forgiven, but purposeful hurting is a whole different subject matter. I'm sorry, but I simply don't find it in me to forgive someone who not only tried to choke the life out of me but laughed while he did it and bragged about it afterward. I really don't think he gives a fat rat's rear quarter if I forgive him or not either.

If that's what you believe, I can't do anything to change that.If you can't forgive those who intentionaly hurt you, then fine. Also, not all everything hurtful are done intentionaly so why not see the good in everyone. Well, it's a fact that it's hard to forgive depending on what happened to a person but if there's a will, there is a way. Anyway, so much for that. Besides, I was asking on the best way on how to forgive our enemies whether they hurted us with their intent. :angel2:

 

[PureX]

I often think I know what other people are thinking, when they do things. I believe I can discern their intentions. But the truth is that we human beings are a complex lot, and our behavior is the result of a huge history of events, and genetic inclinations, and momentary whims. We very often don't know ourselves why we're doing what we're doing. And sometimes we think we know, but don't.

When I meet people who show their willingness to harm others, I often wonder what might have happened to them to make them the way they are. But in the end, I'll never know anymore than I will ever really know why I am the way I am.

To live among other human beings means that we are bound to be trampled on sooner or later. Just the close proximity and poor vision will ensure that. So I try to keep in mind when these things happen that it's not really about me, and who is doing what to me or why. It's really more a matter of it just being my turn in the wrong place at the wrong time. I happen to be standing in the way of someone else's train, and for whatever reason they aren't going to stop for me. Wham! And now it's my turn to hurt.

We all get our turn to hurt. We all find ourselves in front of someone else's train sooner or later. And I believe that sooner or later someone will fall in front of my train, too, when I'm too blind to see how fast I'm going or too stupid to see that I'm going in a foolish direction.

When Jesus forgave, he didn't say "Father, please forgive those who repent, only". And he didn't say, "Father please forgive only those who recognize that they have hurt me". Instead, he said, "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do". He forgave us even in our ignorance, and even though that ignorance causes us to continue to behave badly. He forgave those who were torturing and murdering him, even as they CONTINUED to torture and murder him.

This is true forgiveness.

The Master has no mind of her own.
She works with the mind of the people.

She is good to people who are good.
She is also good to people who aren't good.
This is true goodness.

She trusts people who are trustworthy.
She also trusts people who aren't trustworthy.
This is true trust.

The Master's mind is like space.
People don't understand her.
They look to her and wait.
She treats them like her own children.​

- from the Tao Te Ching
​

 

[Draka]

If that's what you believe, I can't do anything to change that.If you can't forgive those who intentionaly hurt you, then fine. Also, not all everything hurtful are done intentionaly so why not see the good in everyone. Well, it's a fact that it's hard to forgive depending on what happened to a person but if there's a will, there is a way. Anyway, so much for that. Besides, I was asking on the best way on how to forgive our enemies whether they hurted us with their intent. :angel2:

Of course it is what I believe. I just can't imagine that his hands "accidentally" grabbed me and threw me into a bookcase and smacked me around.

Also, I said that if things are accidental then of course there is forgiveness. I simply don't see the reasoning of forgiving someone of horrendous, intentional harm inflicted on you for their sheer enjoyment, especially if they not only don't have one iota of remorse, but would hurt you again in a heartbeat if given the opportunity. Forgiveness at that point is stupidity.

 

[Ben Masada]

Of course it is what I believe. I just can't imagine that his hands "accidentally" grabbed me and threw me into a bookcase and smacked me around.

Also, I said that if things are accidental then of course there is forgiveness. I simply don't see the reasoning of forgiving someone of horrendous, intentional harm inflicted on you for their sheer enjoyment, especially if they not only don't have one iota of remorse, but would hurt you again in a heartbeat if given the opportunity. Forgiveness at that point is stupidity.

Well, there is one way out if you can't forgive: Ignore the sound of the train but out
of the railroad.

Ben:drool:

 

[Father Heathen]

Is it good to feel that there is someone mad/angry at you? If you commited something wrong accidentally and the person that you hurt cannot forgive you, can you take the consiquences? Can your conscience handle it?

There is a difference between an honest mistake and a deliberate act of malice, but what consequences? If someone can't get over an unintentional accident then that's their problem.

 

[Renji]

Of course it is what I believe. I just can't imagine that his hands "accidentally" grabbed me and threw me into a bookcase and smacked me around.

Also, I said that if things are accidental then of course there is forgiveness. I simply don't see the reasoning of forgiving someone of horrendous, intentional harm inflicted on you for their sheer enjoyment, especially if they not only don't have one iota of remorse, but would hurt you again in a heartbeat if given the opportunity. Forgiveness at that point is stupidity.

I understand your point. I've red your early replies on this thread. I'm sorry for what happened to you. :sorry1: An experience of yours is so complicated. Allow me to ask this to you, have you moved on by this time? Just curious...

 

[Draka]

I understand your point. I've red your early replies on this thread. I'm sorry for what happened to you. :sorry1: An experience of yours is so complicated. Allow me to ask this to you, have you moved on by this time? Just curious...

I have moved on with my life and am quite happy now. It took many years to work on undoing the emotional and mental harm done to me and to work on my self-esteem. Physical abuse, while atrocious, doesn't scar as long as the mind. I will still occassionally find myself apologizing for things I shouldn't have to or asking permission for things I shouldn't have to. Feeling self-conscious about my actions. Little things like that stay with you for a while to remind you of the harm done. To me, to forgive that which put me in the condition it did would be akin to saying that it was alright. Maybe sometime, time will have softened it enough, maybe I will be genuinely apologized to, maybe then there might be some forgiveness. Until then though, I simply don't see any reason to forgive. I would fully expect my ex to apologize before the person who took my children from me though. That person...will never be forgiven...ever.

 

[Renji]

You're a strong woman, Draka. You remind me of my mother..:clap

 

[ChristineES]

I think the point trying to be made that is if I wasn't able to forgive someone for a deliberate or accidental attack, then it is a poison to me. It doesn't even effect the person you are angry with because obviously you would have no contact with him or her. Forgiveness doesn't mean you have to have anything to do with the person- it is taking a burden off yourself. I went through years of this poison until I was able to forgive the people who hurt me. When I was finally able to let it go, it ceased to effect me.

But each person must make his or her own decisions.

 

[Renji]

I noticed lately that the conversation in my thread went far to my topic. Guys, let's head back to the topic: what is the best way to forgive someone who wronged us in any ways?

 

[autonomous1one1]

I noticed lately that the conversation in my thread went far to my topic. Guys, let's head back to the topic: what is the best way to forgive someone who wronged us in any ways?

Greetings Lawrence. Yes, we got from how best to forgive to why forgive at all.

As posted above, one way to forgive is to realize oneness with all and 'forgive forwarding.' That is, forgive in advance unconditionally. One's own finite ego is taken out of the picture. Of course, this approach will not help many forgive others because their perspectives cannot allow it, so let me put on the table 'understanding.' Understanding deeply why someone hurts others sometimes can aid us in forgiving them for they often cannot help themselves. This understanding also may include knowing that one who hurts others hurts themselves more in spite of what they may think or feel and that they need our help.

Regards,
a..1

 

[Renji]

Yes, we got from how best to forgive to why forgive at all.

As posted above, one way to forgive is to realize oneness with all and 'forgive forwarding.' That is, forgive in advance unconditionally. One's own finite ego is taken out of the picture. Of course, this approach will not help many forgive others because their perspectives cannot allow it, so let me put on the table 'understanding.' Understanding deeply why someone hurts others sometimes can aid us in forgiving them for they often cannot help themselves. This understanding also may include knowing that one who hurts others hurts themselves more in spite of what they may think or feel and that they need our help.

Regards,
a..1

Agreed. I also agree to your concept of understanding. In addition to what you have said, I think we should uderstand / analyze every situation and actions that we take so we can't hurt others. Also, understanding that all of us commits our very mistake from the smallest to biggest one enables us to understand the faults of others that was done on us,enabling us to forgive our "enemies" and even befriending them. Understanding is one of the possible ways to forgive those who trespass against us.

 

[autonomous1one1]

..... Understanding is one of the possible ways to forgive those who trespass against us.

Ok, so far we have amnesia, frubals, and understanding. Just kidding, there really are quite a few good ideas above. Someone mentioned 'meditate within' and we might add prayer to that; decide to forgive first and then if there is difficulty, 'pray' to allow oneself to forgive. But sometimes it is just a matter of saying - ok, I forgive them.

 

[Renji]

Prayer has a genuine power and can contribute to an absolute forgiveness.

 

[zenzero]

Friend Lawrence,

Prayer has a genuine power and can contribute to an absolute forgiveness.

The power of prayer comes from *Surrender of the EGO* which prayer is all about.
If that is not happening then forgiveness does not happen and they happen simultaneously as when the EGO is surrendered then there remains NONE to forgive and none to be forgiven.
Love & rgds

 

[Renji]

Friend Lawrence,



The power of prayer comes from *Surrender of the EGO* which prayer is all about.
If that is not happening then forgiveness does not happen and they happen simultaneously as when the EGO is surrendered then there remains NONE to forgive and none to be forgiven.
Love & rgds

So are you saying that forgiveness can only occur when one person surrenders his/her pride? If that is your point, I would have to agree.

 

[Heneni]

Love your neighbour as yourself.

If you dont, you will incarnate and become your neighbour and hate yourself instead. If you cant forgive your neighbour, you will have to face that demon/monster some time in the future. You will become the monster with lots of self-hatred, no pity and compassion on yourself, unable to forgive yourself. You have a choice. You can say like jesus said to those who abused him, forgive them father for THEY KNOW NOT WHAT THEY HAVE DONE!, or you can become the abuser trying to love yourself. These people who crucified jesus knew what they were doing, but what they did not know, is that they would have to incarnate and be abused themselves in order to learn to forgive rather than abuse.

Heneni

 

[mohammed_beiruti]

sometimes forgiveness is useless, if we forgave a murderer for killing people, and we set him free - because we pretend that we love him- other victims will be thier turn again to be killed by the same murderer, that results, that we loved the murderer more than the victims.

just a clue, you have to love Allah more than anyone else, thus, it became your priority of love."to love who more than who?!".

Qura'an Ch.9 Repentance:

[24] Say: If it be that your fathers, your sons, your brothers, your mates, or your kindred; the wealth that ye have gained; the commerce in which ye fear a decline; or the dwellings in which ye delight - are dearer to you than Allah, Or His Messenger, or the striving in His cause - then wait until Allah brings about His decision: and Allah guides not the rebellious.