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To The Anti Gay Religious

Shuttlecraft

.Navigator
Do you actually know anyone who is gay (personally)?..

Yeah the guy who runs a local charity shop is gay but I don't care because he's a nice friendly guy, and I once applied to be a volunteer helper there, but he said "No thanks, i've got all the helpers i need at the moment".
Huh, and yet there were "Volunteers urgently required" posters plastered in the shop window!
Perhaps he just don't like straights (sniffle)..

PS- and I once applied to help at a charity shop run by a lesbian woman and got turned down there too, I just can't win (blub)..
 
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Etritonakin

Well-Known Member
I was thinking about a comment someone made -I think in this thread -about the idea that God would give man the awesomeness of sex -and then take it away when he made people immortal.

Sex is such a powerful force (as well as being pretty fun), that some cannot imagine living without it -or wanting to.

However, sex also has a purpose -that being reproduction.

If we remove sex, gender and sexual reproduction from the equation, I don't see that the rest need be absent. There is no reason that there can't be something even better than the experience of sex -and all of the rest can still be present in some way -intimacy, love, etc...

Our present experiences and senses may even be dull in comparison.

Perhaps that's why I am not so focused on sexuality as an integral part of ME -but as a feature of my present state.


**************************************************

On the original subject.....

I would much rather ask homosexual people questions -but I actually tend to not bring up the subject and even avoid it when asked questions by homosexual people in everyday life. It can be a risky proposition. I'd much rather go on with life -let people go on with theirs -and consider the matter in other, more indirect, ways -such as forums, studies, etc.
 
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Triumphant_Loser

Libertarian Egalitarian
However, sex also has a purpose -that being reproduction.

Not always. Dolphins have sex for pleasure, as well as humans.

Almost all primates perform and receive oral sex, as well as masturbate. Neither of those lead to reproduction.

Also, not to mention that homosexual behavior has been observed in almost every single animal species on the planet. Which, once again, does not lead to reproduction.
 

Etritonakin

Well-Known Member
Not always. Dolphins have sex for pleasure, as well as humans.

Almost all primates perform and receive oral sex, as well as masturbate. Neither of those lead to reproduction.

Also, not to mention that homosexual behavior has been observed in almost every single animal species on the planet. Which, once again, does not lead to reproduction.

Acknowledged -which is why I said ALSO

(still not "anti-gay" btw)
 
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Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
Science is clueless on the soul, on life after death, on God and eternal destinies.

That's because those things are a matter of belief, not empirical fact.

Perhaps in some ways I am more concerned for that transsexual's well being than science is.

Sure you are.

Perhaps they are better off becoming a girl, but then to leave them to their own whims after they leave the hospital is hardly the end of the story.

I'm a female to male transsexual. Yes, we do exist.

You may be more content and at peace living a life of enjoying many gay partners and I may have more pleasure being in the arms of another man’s wife. But that temporary condition has eternal ramifications.

I think you assume too much about me and are relying on dumb stereotypes about gay men. Also, I'm not gay. I'm bi and not really interested in promiscuity.

Oh, it is because these doctrines were formed centuries ago that they lose their usefulness and veracity and are now referred to as stale?

Actually, the Catholic Church has no official doctrine about transgender or transsexual people. Its doctrines on sexual morality are definitely stuck in Medieval times, however.

Well I can see how modern technology and neo-paganism ideologies have brought such comfort and serenityto the inner self in this nation (billions of anti-depressants and millions of cases of neurosis notwithstanding). Stale St. Augustine said “our hearts will always be restless until the rest in God.” We all seek eternal peace and truth and hope. None of which you or science prescribes has a hint of a true remedy for that.

I'm not interested in your ramblings about some grudge against science you have.

Christianity does not reject medical care. To suggest becoming a truebeliever in the Christian faith increases the risk of suicide sounds preposterous to me.

I have seen conservative Catholics argue that transsexuals who undergo treatment for their medical condition are "mutilating" themselves and should rely on god to "heal" us because "god doesn't make mistakes" (apparently ignoring the existence of congenital deformities, disorders and illnesses). I have also seen a Catholic apologist suggest that it is better for transsexuals to kill ourselves rather than undergo medical treatment.

Yes, conservative Christianity that homophobic, biphobic and transphobic does encourage depression and suicide amongst LGBT people.

To suggest suffering is encouraged by the Catholic faith is false.

Look up "redemptive suffering" and "mortification of the flesh". Sadomasochism has a history in Catholicism going back to the beginning of it.

To suggest suffering has no virtue, however, is equally false. Until one humbly accepts his faults, shortcomings and reliance upon the One who gave him life, he is playing a dangerous fool’s game. IMO

I don't believe in penance.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
Frank, this may not be relevant, but have you ever wondered if gays were better off without rights that Heterosexuals and Heterosexual couples have?
Perhaps, any rights, other than discrimination, which is dwindling each and every decade anyway?


On topic: Personally, as a gay man, and as stated before, I WANT A SON SO BAD DUUUUDE. I feel like I have NOTHING to live for. Having a girl is fine by me too, for you feminists who think im discriminating xP. I want the sacrifices parents make, I want the responsibilities, But I also want the experience, the joys, the downs, the sadness, the greatness, and most importantly, someone to love and bring into the world, period. I want to take my son/daughter fishing, take them to disney, take them to lesser world countries to thicken the skin, show them reality, but to also let them dream of fairy tales. I told my BF this, and he looks at me like a chick given hes a Type A masculine poomouth. Yet, a man wanting a child is as normal and righteous as any other 'manly' virtue, so I don't take offense.


Then Reality comes along, and tells me given the current condition of society, our economics, our culture, our community at large, etc, that we are in no place to raise children as of yet. Some couples? Hell yea! Lets hope they are succesfull though, because the last thing the gay community needs atm is more blood spilled. Gay marriage would surely spill more blood too. Need. More. Time. Give it a few decades and gay couples/gay communities might be in a better place to support gay marriage and adoption/children, but as of late, the worlds not ready, were (most) are not ready for such rights. It'll end up more of a loss than a +. Others may disagree, but thats somewhat of my stance.

I really don't think you should use your boyfriend as an example to generalize about all gay men. There's people of all sexual orientations who are in relationships with people who don't want kids when they do.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
I wouldn’t dream of protesting outside a doctor’s office to discourage some determined man from having hormone shots or whatever “transforms” him into a woman. But I just happen to believe God is the answer for their troubled souls, not allowing science to somehow “play God.”

Religion does not cure gender dysphoria. Transsexualism is a sex differentiation disorder caused by the brain being exposed to high amounts of cross-sex hormones in the womb that cause it to develop in the opposite direction of the rest of the body. It's a medical condition.

Brain Sex differentiation
 

thau

Well-Known Member
I'ma female to male transsexual. Yes, we do exist.
Well then I will defer to you by and large. But speaking of transsexuality is really off point a bit, or at least, no different than my opinions of homosexuality. I will not bore you repeating except to say that I have said a number of times before that we all have our own ways of being judged by God given who we were born, what opportunities or gifts given, and what crosses to bear. I quite imagine if someone could in no reasonable way have avoided the inevitable, i.e. becoming gay or a transsexual--- then I believe God will take that into account and have mercy on you in your own unique way. You may not seeit as a cross or detriment, but that is my way of describing it.


Me: "You may be more content and at peace living a life of enjoying many gay partners and I may have more pleasure being in the arms of another man’s wife.But that temporary condition has eternal ramifications."

You: I think you assume too much about me and are relying on dumb stereotypes about gay men. Also, I'm not gay. I'm bi and notreally interested in promiscuity.
Well I am not an adulterer either. I was not trying to make it a personal matter, just an illustration.

I'm not interested in your ramblings about some grudge against science you have.
Well then let me be clear since no one around here likes to read between the lines. Neither I nor the Catholic Church is at war with science. Science is wonderful and has civilized mankind and extended his life and brought many positive comforts and remedies to theworld. May it continue to flourish. Surely the Catholic Church and many clergy have contributed enormously to its success over the centuries.


But allow me to repeat this passage. Jonathan Swift (17th century English satirist) speaking of the achievements of science and its reflection upon itsown laurels. ---- "And he, whose fortunes and dispositions have placed him in a convenient station to enjoy the fruits of this noble art; he that can with Epicurus content his ideas with the films and images that fly-off upon his senses from the superficies of things; such a man truly wise, creams off nature, leaving the sour and the dregs for philosophy and reason to lap up. This is the sublime and refined point of felicity, called, the possession of being well deceived; the serene peaceful state of being a fool among knaves."

That is the point. Science insists it has nothing to do with searching for God or even intelligent design, and so whenever cornered on somematter so unlikely to have an answer in the natural, it says “not my field of study, will not speculate whether that points to a higher power or not.” Well, fine, I accept your limitations. Then don’t try to 1) say there is no evidence for God, and, more importantly, 2) Don’t try to convince me that your field of study is all that critical. It is not! All science can dois make living more comfortable and extend life. But death it cannot conquer and it cannot tell us what will become of us after death. Nor can it tell us if there is a heaven and a hell, if there is a God and a judgment, if life is eternal. All those matters dwarf what science has to offer for the good of man --- which is why I put all my soul and effort into finding God and knowing what His purpose is for mankindand my life in particular. God is manifest, I would be a fool to ignore that salient fact.

Yes, conservative Christianity that homophobic, biphobic and transphobic does encourage depression and suicide amongst LGBT people.
Yes,I am sure you are right. And some of the rest of us Christians have other sins we need to confess. Like I said, your cross may be heavier but to expect a Church to be pure and sinless before you can consider the holier and more charitable side of it, that can never happen.


Look up "redemptive suffering" and"mortification of the flesh". Sadomasochism has a history in Catholicism going back to the beginning of it.
Yes, that was true for some monks and a few other devotees I'm sure. But it was not for sexual pleasure, and more importantly, it is not being taught or asked of hardly any Catholic to consider.


I don't believe in penance.
I do. And mercy.
 
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Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
Well then I will defer to you by and large. But speaking of transsexuality is really off point a bit, or at least, no different than my opinions of homosexuality. I will not bore you repeating except to say that I have said a number of times before that we all have our own ways of being judged by God given who we were born, what opportunities or gifts given, and what crosses to bear. I quite imagine if someone could in no reasonable way have avoided the inevitable, i.e. becoming gay or a transsexual--- then I believe God will take that into account and have mercy on you in your own unique way. You may not seeit as a cross or detriment, but that is my way of describing it.

I don't view transsexualism as a religious issue. It's just a medical condition to be treated under the care of doctors, as I am doing (I'm on testosterone therapy). Sexual orientation isn't a "cross" to me, either.

Well I am not an adulterer either. I was not trying to make it a personal matter, just an illustration.

Well then let me be clear since no one around here likes to read between the lines. Neither I nor the Catholic Church is at war with science. Science is wonderful and has civilized mankind and extended his life and brought many positive comforts and remedies to theworld. May it continue to flourish. Surely the Catholic Church and many clergy have contributed enormously to its success over the centuries.
But allow me to repeat this passage. Jonathan Swift (17th century English satirist) speaking of the achievements of science and its reflection upon itsown laurels. ---- "And he, whose fortunes and dispositions have placed him in a convenient station to enjoy the fruits of this noble art; he that can with Epicurus content his ideas with the films and images that fly-off upon his senses from the superficies of things; such a man truly wise, creams off nature, leaving the sour and the dregs for philosophy and reason to lap up. This is the sublime and refined point of felicity, called, the possession of being well deceived; the serene peaceful state of being a fool among knaves."

That is the point. Science insists it has nothing to do with searching for God or even intelligent design, and so whenever cornered on somematter so unlikely to have an answer in the natural, it says “not my field of study, will not speculate whether that points to a higher power or not.” Well, fine, I accept your limitations. Then don’t try to 1) say there is no evidence for God, and, more importantly, 2) Don’t try to convince me that your field of study is all that critical. It is not! All science can dois make living more comfortable and extend life. But death it cannot conquer and it cannot tell us what will become of us after death. Nor can it tell us if there is a heaven and a hell, if there is a God and a judgment, if life is eternal. All those matters dwarf what science has to offer for the good of man --- which is why I put all my soul and effort into finding God and knowing what His purpose is for mankindand my life in particular. God is manifest, I would be a fool to ignore that salient fact.

Well, that's fine for you but I have my own spiritual beliefs and I'm not a part of any organized religion.

Yes,I am sure you are right. And some of the rest of us Christians have other sins we need to confess. Like I said, your cross may be heavier but to expect a Church to be pure and sinless before you can consider the holier and more charitable side of it, that can never happen.

I've been a Catholic and have been continuously let down by the Church. The Church is currently refusing to help keep a roof over my mom and I's heads. They can point us to a lovely homeless shelter, though. :rolleyes:

Yes, that was true for some monks and a few other devotees I'm sure. But it was not for sexual pleasure, and more importantly, it is not being taught or asked of hardly any Catholic to consider.

Oh, the history of sadomasochism in Christianity is a lot bigger than you think, but that's another topic.

I do. And mercy.

That's nice.
 

Thruve

Sheppard for the Die Hard
I really don't think you should use your boyfriend as an example to generalize about all gay men. There's people of all sexual orientations who are in relationships with people who don't want kids when they do.

Dude you took it so wrong.
I wasn't using my BF as an example, He was just background noise/detail after getting the message across that I too, like many other gay men, want children.
Hes irrelevant. I know if Im secure with adopting/surrogate in the future, I will obvioulsy reconsider the relationship if thats what I want. He, again, is irrelevant. I was just throwing details out.
 

suncowiam

Well-Known Member
Hi Saint Frank,

Thank you for sharing your story. I'm completely new to this situation so if I say something that might appear rude to you, then correct me and I'll do my best in continue with. Could I ask you at what age you started feeling that maybe you were more like a boy? And then at what age did you confirm your belief that you wanted to be a boy or were a boy? How did you come to that conclusion?

Thanks
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
Dude you took it so wrong.
I wasn't using my BF as an example, He was just background noise/detail after getting the message across that I too, like many other gay men, want children.
Hes irrelevant. I know if Im secure with adopting/surrogate in the future, I will obvioulsy reconsider the relationship if thats what I want. He, again, is irrelevant. I was just throwing details out.

Ah. Well, that is fair. My point just is that LGBT people deserve to have the right to parent and to get married if the individuals want to, is all. Even if the majority of LGBT people didn't want to marry or to be parents, it should still be allowed even only one LGBT person/couple wants to be a parent or get married.
 

Apple Sugar

Active Member
Incidentally there were ex-gays in the early Christian churches and nobody batted an eye (1 Cor 6:9-11)
True. Keywords being, ex-gays. Repentant gays, redeemed, former gays.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.


The scriptures in Leviticus that condemn a man laying with a man as he would a woman referred to the pagan's that worshiped Baal. Temple prostitutes of all kind, gay, straight, cross dressing, occupied Baal's region of worship.
The condemnation was referenced as a message to the Hebrews to not behave as the pagan Baal idolaters did.
Condemnation of the sexually active homosexual extends from the OT to the new. Heterosexual sexual immorality, sex before marriage, is also condemned. OT and new. And in that 1 Corinthians scripture as we see.
 

Apple Sugar

Active Member
No, they exist today. Interestingly enough they find themselves bullied, suffering intolerance and discrimination, from many in the LBGT community.

Fascinating. A group that advocates for tolerance has members within that have no tolerance for those no longer affiliated.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
Hi Saint Frank,

Thank you for sharing your story. I'm completely new to this situation so if I say something that might appear rude to you, then correct me and I'll do my best in continue with. Could I ask you at what age you started feeling that maybe you were more like a boy? And then at what age did you confirm your belief that you wanted to be a boy or were a boy? How did you come to that conclusion?

Thanks

I've perceived myself as male for as long as I can remember. So, since early childhood. Gender identity becomes "locked" at age 2 or 3. I didn't know anything about transsexualism until my teens so I just thought I was a freak and kept it to myself because I didn't know how to explain it. I came out and started living as a man in my late teens.
 
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