Tommy Robinson: Arrest and Gag order in the UK

[exchemist]

Until a week ago not so many people knew who Robinson is.
Arresting him has brought these consequences:

- now everyone knows the rapists' ethnicity

- Robinson's followers are multiplying

- The British judiciary has lost credibility

Bullsh1t, Musso.

1) This was already a very well-known case ("grooming" trial by a gang of people, mainly of Asian extraction), and the ethnicity of the accused was already part of the story.

2) Yaxley-Lennon has no "followers" as he does not any longer lead any organisation to which "followers" can belong. There can therefore be no figures showing that his "followers" are increasing - unless you simply mean Twitter followers or some cr@p like that.

3) The English judiciary (there is no such thing as a British judiciary, as Scotland has its own legal system) is not suffering any damage to its credibility. Not that this case would damage it, but in any event reporting of the case is currently restricted, because of the sub judice principle, so nobody in Britain has even heard about it.

 

[icehorse]

Debateable. But nevertheless, do you think it is justifiable to attack an entire religious group and all of its members (who are predominantly a minority racial group as well) for the violent crimes of just a portion of its adherents?

The "about" page on the EDL website specifically states that the EDL does not do that. It distinguishes between normal Muslims and those who are in pursuit of Sharia.

I understand that the EDL is an easy target for the press. But it also strikes me that the press almost universally tow the party line when it comes to support of "multi-culturalism". And further, it strikes me that all through Europe, "multiculturalism" has been poorly implemented and such poor implementation is leading to many significant problems.

 

[oldbadger]

With all due respect...I see nothing sensible.

It's like saying: "The judges gag your mouth because some extremist can freak out and kill you "

That's psychological terrorism...it's like delivering a verdict while someone's pointing a knife to your throat

That's the third time that you have suggested that I wrote something when I didn't, so this post will be ending our chat.

I said that it's sensible to arrest persons and try their offences when they incite others to commit crimes. You wrote that I mentioned gagging orders! I didn't!!

The gagging order was lifted today, btw,

 

[exchemist]

The "about" page on the EDL website specifically states that the EDL does not do that. It distinguishes between normal Muslims and those who are in pursuit of Sharia.

I understand that the EDL is an easy target for the press. But it also strikes me that the press almost universally tow the party line when it comes to support of "multi-culturalism". And further, it strikes me that all through Europe, "multiculturalism" has been poorly implemented and such poor implementation is leading to many significant problems.

Toe the line.

The EDL is not just "an easy target", it is an organisation of thugs. Just do us all a favour and take that on board, OK? We Brits all know this.

There is, of course, a debate that we need to carry on having, about immigrant communities that fail to integrate, the muslim ones being the most important example. Multiculturalism is now increasingly seen as a suspect approach and in my view quite rightly. It is not right, I think, that people see alien cultural practices becoming so prevalent that they feel they no longer fit in, in the neighbourhoods where they have lived all their lives. But EDL is emphatically not the organisation to carry on this debate. Hardly any of their knuckle-dragging members can carry on a civilised conversation. They are on the whole happier getting drunk and beating people up - a bit like Hitler's brownshirts.

The issue with modern islam in the West is that is has become politicised. I read an eye-opening book about this recently, called "The Islamist", by Ed Husein. If you are genuinely interested in this issue I recommend you read it, rather than these horrible Israel Lobby websites, which as you can see from this thread are full of lies and misrepresentation. From this book I learned that political islam was invented by an Indian (later a Pakistani after partition) called Abdul Ala Mawdudi, a journalist not a religious scholar, who founded a political organisation called Jamat-e-Islami in British India. These ideas have sadly become very influential, for reasons explained at length in the book. The author got swept up in muslim extremism (and very close to terrorism) as a teenager, but was saved by a combination of his own intelligence, the childhood grounding in real islam from his father - and by the love of a woman. It's a gripping story.

But make no mistake, cities such as London, including the South London area in which I live, have quite large muslim populations that pose no issue whatsoever to the daily life of the nation.

 

[icehorse]

There is, of course, a debate that we need to carry on having, about immigrant communities that fail to integrate, the muslim ones being the most important example. Multiculturalism is now increasingly seen as a suspect approach and in my view quite rightly.

I won't argue with your point that many in the EDL are thugs, that's probably correct. But I can see their perspective because the government has been painfully slow on this issue, and sometimes shifting the Overton window is what's called for.

What's your take on the several large grooming rings that have come to light recently? As I understand it, the authorities have known about these rings for years? To connect the dots a little bit - if the authorities did indeed know about these horrific grooming rings, then it seems quite reasonable for folks on the street to respond aggressively.

Similar question concerning widespread FGM, I believe I understand the authorities have looked the other way on this issue as well. If so, it would seem that "debate" is not what England needs at this point.

 

[exchemist]

As Oldbadger says, the reporting restrictions on the arrest of Yaxley-Lennon have now been lifted. Here is an article explaining what happened: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-44287640

What he was doing was livestreaming, i.e. publishing on-line, live, proceedings from this trial that was sub judice and had reporting restrictions imposed. As I and others have explained this is normal procedure in English criminal trials where there is felt to be a risk that the fairness of the trial could be compromised by potentially biased reporting of it. So there is no "gagging", just a normal process for getting a fair verdict. Everything can be published once the trial is concluded.

Bear in mind that it is often the defence that will use allegedly biased reporting, to claim the trial is unfair and that the defendants should be discharged, or the trial re-run at the cost of great delay and public expense.

So for those of you salivating at the prospect of some muslims being convicted of a sex crime (and there seem to be several), this idiot was making that harder to achieve.

 

[exchemist]

This is obviously bigoted bilge, from someone who does not have the first clue what he is talking about.

 

[Wotans Krieger]

This is obviously bigoted bilge, from someone who does not have the first clue what he is talking about.

Do you live next door to one?

 

[exchemist]

I won't argue with your point that many in the EDL are thugs, that's probably correct. But I can see their perspective because the government has been painfully slow on this issue, and sometimes shifting the Overton window is what's called for.

What's your take on the several large grooming rings that have come to light recently? As I understand it, the authorities have known about these rings for years? To connect the dots a little bit - if the authorities did indeed know about these horrific grooming rings, then it seems quite reasonable for folks on the street to respond aggressively.

Similar question concerning widespread FGM, I believe I understand the authorities have looked the other way on this issue as well. If so, it would seem that "debate" is not what England needs at this point.

As far as the "government being painfully slow", this betrays a very un-American reliance on government to solve the problems of society. These issues are quite tricky to address if one wants to avoid antagonising or stigmatising groups within society. There are no quick fixes: a lot of it requires assimilation over generations, as has historically happened in the USA. But education is key, as is the immigration process. The Dutch have not only a language test but a training module on Dutch society, including such themes as women's equality and gay sex! We could maybe do with something like that here.

The UK is, like the US, going through a moral panic about sex crimes at the moment. It is always easy with hindsight to point to things that people must have suspected. It is true that there have been several high profile gangs of Asian origin. There may be some link to the worse forms of politicized islam behind this, treating girls from outside the community as lesser beings etc. So sure there is work to do.

But what is not the solution is to whip up generalised islamophobia, of the type you will have found on poisonous websites such as Gatestone, or to start believing, idiotically, in some kind of apocalypse. These people are of course perfectly decent citizens for the most part. Just as in dealing with drug gangs in the West Indian community, you don't deal with that by encouraging a Klan mentality, so the focus here has to be a mix of better policing and getting better relations between the police and social workers and these communities.

 

[exchemist]

Do you live next door to one?

There are plenty of muslims across the road, and there are no "gated communities" anywhere in my part of London.

But yes I am a member of the hated "elite", being somebody with a decent education and a professional career behind me, including four years in the Middle East, three in the Netherlands and two in the US. So clearly that disqualifies me from having a valid opinion. Those with valid opinions would - obviously - be those who are badly educated and have no experience of living in other cultures. Stands to reason.

As for "miscegenation", that is such a racist concept that it requires no further comment.

 

[Estro Felino]

Thankfully muslims generally do not and indeed cannot integrate and this in effect is a 'saving grace' for the native population as at least it helps to deter miscegenation from happening. .

That's for sure. They don't want to marry our women because "they dress like hookers"....

They understood our women won't submit and won't wear Carnival costumes.

 

[exchemist]

That's for sure. They don't want to marry our women because "they dress like hookers"....

They understood our women won't submit and won't wear Carnival costumes.

Keep it up, Musso.

 

[Wotans Krieger]

There are plenty of muslims across the road, and there are no "gated communities" anywhere in my part of London.

But yes I am a member of the hated "elite", being somebody with a decent education and a professional career behind me, including four years in the Middle East, three in the Netherlands and two in the US. So clearly that disqualifies me from having a valid opinion. Those with valid opinions would - obviously - be those who are badly educated and have no experience of living in other cultures. Stands to reason.

As for "miscegenation", that is such a racist concept that it requires no further comment.

I note that it is the cossetted cosmopolitan middle class university educated professionals and their elite masters who insist on inflicting the multiracial society upon the rest of it. I have news for you-we don't want it. I am not impressed by your 'career'-I know that must damage your precious self-esteem. Just sit back and watch whilst England is destroyed by the traitors in Westminster-your ancestors will be proud.

 

[Wotans Krieger]

That's for sure. They don't want to marry our women because "they dress like hookers"....

They understood our women won't submit and won't wear Carnival costumes.

Well that is a good point. Many modern English women do dress like tarts. The requirement to convert to Islam is a safeguarding to any mixing so we should be grateful for that cultural and religious barrier.

 

[icehorse]

As far as the "government being painfully slow", this betrays a very un-American reliance on government to solve the problems of society. These issues are quite tricky to address if one wants to avoid antagonising or stigmatising groups within society

Various European governments decided over the last several decades to more or less "open the doors" to huge numbers of immigrants. While I'd agree that these are tricky issues, they need attention - urgent attention.

But what is not the solution is to whip up generalised islamophobia, of the type you will have found on poisonous websites such as Gatestone, or to start believing, idiotically, in some kind of apocalypse. These people are of course perfectly decent citizens for the most part

Understanding and communicating the true nature of Islamic ideology is not "Islamophonic", and in fact the very word "Islamophobic" is dishonest. Muslims are people who believe a set of ideas they call Islam. It is in no way inappropriate to criticize a set of ideas.

Islam enshrines and instills a set of core values that are often in opposition to Western secularism. IMO, it is naive to say that Muslim fundamentalists* who hold Islam dear are "decent citizens". That is - IMO - oxymoronic. I think that there are many Muslims who are not fundamentalists - those who don't take Islam too seriously, no worries there. But I would say that roughly half of the Muslims living in Europe are "fundamentalists", and their values are simply incompatible with Western values.

*The definition of "fundamentalist" that I think is most commonly used is "those who want to live in a theocracy, i.e., under Sharia.)

 

[Shad]

- now everyone knows the rapists' ethnicity

This info was already in the media before the gag order.

- Robinson's followers are multiplying

No idea about this.

- The British judiciary has lost credibility

Why?

 

[exchemist]

Various European governments decided over the last several decades to more or less "open the doors" to huge numbers of immigrants. While I'd agree that these are tricky issues, they need attention - urgent attention.



Understanding and communicating the true nature of Islamic ideology is not "Islamophonic", and in fact the very word "Islamophobic" is dishonest. Muslims are people who believe a set of ideas they call Islam. It is in no way inappropriate to criticize a set of ideas.

Islam enshrines and instills a set of core values that are often in opposition to Western secularism. IMO, it is naive to say that Muslim fundamentalists* who hold Islam dear are "decent citizens". That is - IMO - oxymoronic. I think that there are many Muslims who are not fundamentalists - those who don't take Islam too seriously, no worries there. But I would say that roughly half of the Muslims living in Europe are "fundamentalists", and their values are simply incompatible with Western values.

*The definition of "fundamentalist" that I think is most commonly used is "those who want to live in a theocracy, i.e., under Sharia.)

A phobia is a persistent and excessive (irrational) fear of something. Please note the difference between criticising ideas and an irrational fear.

It is quite possible to have an irrational fear of muslims. If you can have an irrational fear of pigeons, or of Jews, or Catholics, as some do, why not muslims? So it's rot to call the term "dishonest". You in fact display some of the symptoms. Muslims, I mean, not pigeons or Jews.

Some stats from Wiki:

Around 83% of Muslims are proud to be a British citizen, compared to 79% of the general public, 77% of Muslims strongly identify with Britain while only 50% of the wider population do, 86.4% of Muslims feel they belong in Britain, slightly more than the 85.9% of Christians, 82% of Muslims want to live in diverse and mixed neighbourhoods compared to 63% of non-Muslim Britons.

A poll reported that 59% of Muslims would prefer to live under British law, compared to 28% who would prefer to live under sharia law.

I don't know how one defines "fundamentalist" but these figures seem to fit with my own observation of the people in my neighbourhood. I feel sure that having a muslim mayor of London will help muslims feel they belong and are making it in British life, which will help integration.

As will the 20,000 interfaith marriages annually: 'Halal' interfaith unions rise among UK women

 

[Augustus]

In this case, I'm most concerned about:

- the rule of law
- gag orders and the quality of journalism

There are a variety of perfectly logical reasons why such reporting restrictions may be put on a case which can relate to ensuring a fair trial, protecting victims, etc.

Seeing as there is still a restriction on reporting the original trial, it's best to wait and see what these reason were before rushing to judgement.

 

[Wotans Krieger]

A phobia is a persistent and excessive (irrational) fear of something. Please note the difference between criticising ideas and an irrational fear.

It is quite possible to have an irrational fear of muslims. If you can have an irrational fear of pigeons, as some do, why not muslims? You in fact display some of the symptoms. Muslims, I mean, not pigeons.

Some stats from Wiki:

Around 83% of Muslims are proud to be a British citizen, compared to 79% of the general public, 77% of Muslims strongly identify with Britain while only 50% of the wider population do, 86.4% of Muslims feel they belong in Britain, slightly more than the 85.9% of Christians, 82% of Muslims want to live in diverse and mixed neighbourhoods compared to 63% of non-Muslim Britons.

A poll reported that 59% of Muslims would prefer to live under British law, compared to 28% who would prefer to live under sharia law.

I don't know how one defines "fundamentalist" but these figures seem to fit with my own observation of the people in my neighbourhood. I feel sure that having a muslim mayor of London will help muslims feel they belong and are making it in British life, which will help integration.

As will the 20,000 interfaith marriages annually: 'Halal' interfaith unions rise among UK women

I see that you get your information from an 'unbiased' source. LoL! What the article does not point out is that the doubling of muslims in the United Kingdom is not down to conversion but mass-and unwanted immigration and the rates of breeding-at the host population's expense who has to fund all of this. Having a muslim mayor may help the immigrant population but it will not help the English population feel that they 'belong' in their own capital city anymore. I visited in the early 2000s to take some Institute of Linguist's exams and I felt like a foreigner in my own country. I am sure that the situation has deteriorated even more since then.

 

[exchemist]

I see that you get your information from an 'unbiased' source. LoL! What the article does not point out is that the doubling of muslims in the United Kingdom is not down to conversion but mass-and unwanted immigration and the rates of breeding-at the host population's expense who has to fund all of this. Having a muslim mayor may help the immigrant population but it will not help the English population feel that they 'belong' in their own capital city anymore. I visited in the early 2000s to take some Institute of Linguist's exams and I felt like a foreigner in my own country. I am sure that the situation has deteriorated even more since then.

People from the provinces said the same about blacks in London a generation ago. London is one of the world's most diverse cultural melting pots. If you can only cope with white faces and meat-and-two-veg, you'd best stay in the country*.

As for this "host population" "funding all of this", what ballocks. Muslims in London work just as hard as anyone. There is no reason to think they do not pull their weight financially.

*Whether that country is the UK or Russia.