Transgenders

[-Peacemaker-]

I guess it's pretty easy to call people 'disturbed' from a comfy spot where you never had to deny yourself, go through years of depression, and be stigmatized by others.

What can I say... I find such words to be sorely disappointing coming from people who supposedly "preach the good news."

I can agree that there is a huge need to be as gentle as possible with our words while remaining truthful. I have edited my language in the above post.

 

[methylatedghosts]

You've got a long way to go to convince me that someone who was pumped full of hormones and had their genitalia mutilated in order to look like a different sex is now happy with themselves.

I am friends with 6 transgendered people. I know at least 10 others, and see more and town. Of those, I know that 5 have had gender reassignment surgery. possibly more, but unconfirmed. At least 3 more are making it a possibility, and are seriously looking into it. This is not something that's done simply by throwing some money at a surgeon, and waking up the next day with new bits. there had to be considerable evidence that the persons life would be improved by the procedure, and is considered only after a number of years of hormonal treatment and living as a person of the opposite sex in every way . Of all those that I know none have regretted the surgery, and are by far happier in themselves. You need to understand that it's not an overnight decision, and in fact is s process that can easily take decades, especially if you can take into account the childhood years - where it all begins...

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Yeah, is that the kind of world that considers a hole cut out of where penis used to be a vagina?

First I suggest you actually look up what the procedure is, because they do not cut/carve a hole. Actually, they more-or-less reshape and invert the penis and scrotum. Usually they do function, look no different than any other vagina, and sometimes can even become miost.

I'm confused how a transexual could really hide their adopted identity. Like if a guy is gay, his appearence is often indistinguishable from straight guys and is only distinguishable if the guy decides to be flamboyant about his sexuality. I would think that if a guy decides to become a transexual that the wig and high heels would give him away pretty quickly.

I have neither high heels nor a wig. And saying that is pretty mean towards some women, who are either very tall and/or large framed, and high heels sometimes make them very insecure (especially if people always point out her height/size) or who for whatever reason do wear a wig. As for when the identity forms, they most likely seem to happen in the womb, were the brain is soaked in hormones of the sex opposite of that of the body. The brain of a transsexual actually looks more like the brain of someone of the opposite sex. Growing up, most transsexuals know at a very young age.

You've got a long way to go to convince me that someone who was pumped full of hormones and had their genitalia mutilated in order to look like a different sex is now happy with themselves.

There are many online forums aimed at the transsexual community, so why not go ask them? TS Information Exchange - TS Information Exchange and The Transgender Boards • Home are two of them. But I warn you, that kind of attitude will not be receive serious answers. As for me, just knowing I'm going to be able to be closer to who I am (and you "fake" comment is indeed a very painful reminder that, no, it isn't perfect and there are many things I can never have) is enough to get me to look forward to the future for once.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

*edit*

:biglaugh:

You are seriously going to judge all transwomen based on one person who wears a school girl outfit? You don't even know if they are trans, there are men who like dressing up like women but they are not trans. Most transwomen do not walk around in fetishistic clothing. I've seen transwomen in the media that if you saw them walking down the street you would never even be able to tell they are trans, and they are very beautiful too, may be you would even look twice if you catch my drift.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

As for me, just knowing I'm going to be able to be closer to who I am (and you "fake" comment is indeed a very painful reminder that, no, it isn't perfect and there are many things I can never have) is enough to get me to look forward to the future for once.

I can't imagine the turmoil you must've gone through in your life. Just to be desperate enough to be willing to "alter" one's body so drastically in order to feel better demonstrates that the level of pain must be nearly unimaginable for those who haven't experienced it. I can be passionate to say the least when I discuss issues like this which I view as not only a medical issue but a moral one. Please don't interpret my passion as callousness. I also have a much bigger issue with those who I view as enablers, the one's who pat people on the back who are legitimately very troubled and support a decision that at best can only offer a superfical "solution" to their condition.

 

[LuisDantas]

I also have a much bigger issue with those who I view as enablers, the one's who pat people on the back who are legitimately very troubled and support a decision that at best can only offer a superfical "solution" to their condition.

Enablers of what? There is nothing superficial about sex change surgery or hormonal therapy, if that is what you mean.

It seems to me that you don't quite believe that transgenderism exists for real.

 

[methylatedghosts]

I can't imagine the turmoil you must've gone through in your life. Just to be desperate enough to be willing to "alter" one's body so drastically in order to feel better demonstrates that the level of pain must be nearly unimaginable for those who haven't experienced it. I can be passionate to say these when I discuss issues like this which I view as not only a medical issue but a moral one. Please don't interpret my passion as callousness. I also have a much bigger issue with those who I view as enablers, the one's who pat people on the back who are legitimately very troubled and support a decision that at best can only offer a superfical "solution" to their condition.

The solution isn't just superficial though. Imagine that from the age of 4 or 5 you are in the wrong body. That the parts you have don't feel like yours. To change that after 25 years of feeling that way is huge. To finally, after a third of your life span, be able to say you have a body that fits your identity is far more than superficial. It's life-changing.

 

[methylatedghosts]

I can't imagine the turmoil you must've gone through in your life. Just to be desperate enough to be willing to "alter" one's body so drastically in order to feel better demonstrates that the level of pain must be nearly unimaginable for those who haven't experienced it.

This sounds to me like you believe that the turmoil results in the desire to change sex, rather than the turmoil being a result of having a gender identity that is different from the physical body. Not to mention what comes from others' inability or unwillingness to accept or understand it

 

[Penumbra]

I can't imagine the turmoil you must've gone through in your life. Just to be desperate enough to be willing to "alter" one's body so drastically in order to feel better demonstrates that the level of pain must be nearly unimaginable for those who haven't experienced it. I can be passionate to say these when I discuss issues like this which I view as not only a medical issue but a moral one. Please don't interpret my passion as callousness. I also have a much bigger issue with those who I view as enablers, the one's who pat people on the back who are legitimately very troubled and support a decision that at best can only offer a superfical "solution" to their condition.

The ones offering support of their decision are enabling them to live healthy lives. They're following the medically researched truths about what helps those individuals.

Starting from a non-evidenced, undeveloped position that transsexualism is inherently wrong regardless of the medical research is going to make arguments superficial. Research indicates that gender identity forms in the brain early in life and cannot be changed. Professional therapy generally cannot adjust someone who has serious gender identity issues in order to change their gender identity to match their physical sex. This is why, instead, serious gender identity disorders are treated by enabling the person to transition via hormones and/or surgeries towards their target sex. The body can be largely changed; the gender identity cannot. No more so than you could legitimately view yourself as a woman or I could view myself as a man.

If you have a moral issue with people who pat transgendered individuals on the back and support their decision due to all of the medical and psychological research that indicates that that is the most medically responsible thing to do, I have a huge problem with the morality of people that make callous statements without almost any research whatsoever that can seriously cause harm to those people.

If one is imaging that transgendered people consist of a guy in high heels and a wig; they're basing their view of transgendered people on characterizations rather than the real thing. Depending on how early a person transitions, they can transition so fully into the other sex that it is impossible to tell that they are not genetically that sex. For example, my female-to-male friend has an appearance through hormones and surgery such that nobody can know by looking at him or talking to him that he ever was physically female. I view him as masculine as any of my genetically male friends, because he is.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

There's a big difference between legit studies conducted my the medical community and the interpretations that people come up with that are supposedly based on them.

 

[Penumbra]

There's a big difference between legit studies conducted my the medical community and the "interpretations" that people come up with that are supposedly based on them.

Which studies have you personally spent time researching and looking into?

Can you share some links?

 

[LuisDantas]

There's a big difference between legit studies conducted my the medical community and the "interpretations" that people come up with that are supposedly based on them.

And then there is the actual reality of the life of transgenders, which you could afford to know better.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

Which studies have you personally spent time researching and looking into?

Can you share some links?

I figured you'd pull that card. FWIW, I actually did some research on some of the studies regarding homosexuality. It was pretty eye opening stuff and from my pov appeared as if there's alot the homosexual community isn't telling us about their chosen lifestyle. To be fair to those who defend that lifestyle as well as oppose it, there's alot of people PHDs on both sides of the debate which makes one asks the question "are people really bowing down to science or just the scientists who are saying what they want to hear?" Apart from research on some of the studies exploring XY and XX chromosomes, I haven't taken the time to actually read a scientist's commentary on transgenderism because I don't need a PHD to see that such a person has a problem in the head and the heart. I also am a long way from believing it's possible to have the brain of one sex and the body of another. I don't doubt there are probably characteristics of a male transgender brain that resemble that of a woman, but to have a brain that is indistinguishable from that of a woman sounds like science fiction.

 

[Penumbra]

Let's deconstruct this.

I figured you'd pull that card. FWIW, I actually did some research on some of the studies regarding homosexuality.

Mixing up sexual orientation with gender identity. They're different.

It was pretty eye opening stuff and from my pov appeared as if there's alot the homosexual community isn't telling us about their chosen lifestyle.

"isn't telling us".

Classic example of unproductive us-vs-them mentality.

To be fair to those who defend that lifestyle as well as oppose it, there's alot of people PHDs on both sides of the debate which makes one asks the question "are people really bowing down to science or just the scientists who are saying what they want to hear?"

Characterizing the argument as undecided. This is kind of like what American religious folk do with evolution sometimes; characterize the debate as though it's still neutral or up-in-the-air when it's not.

Homosexuality was removed from the DSM (which is the American Psychiatric Association's standard) as no longer being a mental disorder. Gender Identity Disorder is being replaced with Gender Dysphoria. There are guidelines to follow for therapists to identify Gender Identity Disorder / Gender Dysphoria and treat it, and the treatment does not involve trying to change the individual's gender identity.

There are always some religiously-inspired people in medical or psychiatric communities trying to argue from the diminishing perspective that LGBT issues can be 'cured' but from a more rational, evidenced-based viewpoint separate from religion there aren't exactly a lot of professionals advocating such things.

Apart from research on some of the studies exploring XY and XX chromosomes, I haven't taken the time to actually read a scientist's commentary on transgenderism because I don't need a PHD to see that such a person has a problem in the head and the heart. I also am a long way from believing it's possible to have the brain of one sex and the body of another.

^The mind is made up prior to and regardless of any and all evidence to the contrary.

I don't doubt there are probably characteristics of a male transgender brain that resemble that of a woman, but to have a brain that is indistinguishable from that of a woman sounds like science fiction.

Brains of transgendered people are not completely indistinguishable from their target gender. But certain parts do mirror their target gender. It would be a fallacy to assert that physical gender identity is equally dispersed across the entire brain.

While biological observations provide evidence of a physical cause of the problem, it doesn't address the decades of observation that gender identity (whether in gender-normal people or those that have gender dysphoria) cannot really be changed once it's established. Unfortunately due to the social pressures like the ones apparent in this thread, many people try decades of mental gymnastics trying to fit in their physical sex until it leads to suicide, or establishing and leaving a family, or other major things.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I figured you'd pull that card. FWIW, I actually did some research on some of the studies regarding homosexuality. It was pretty eye opening stuff and from my pov appeared as if there's alot the homosexual community isn't telling us about their chosen lifestyle.

If your sources are saying it's a choice, then they are not credible sources. One pretty good way to judge credibility is just how many people overall support an idea. Very few endorse the idea that homosexuality is a choice, while an overwhelming amount of individual professionals and organizations alike state that it is not.

Apart from research on some of the studies exploring XY and XX chromosomes, I haven't taken the time to actually read a scientist's commentary on transgenderism because I don't need a PHD to see that such a person has a problem in the head and the heart.

XY/XX chromosomes overall really don't say much. There are so many variants and so many things that can go wrong, that chromosomal testing is widely frowned upon and not considered a valid test of sex because sometimes women are born with XY chromosomes (among other things).
And no, I don't have a problem in my head or in my heart (unless you want to count the years of depression, anxiety, and general anguish), but a problem with a couple of dangly parts that don't belong.

I also am a long way from believing it's possible to have the brain of one sex and the body of another. I don't doubt there are probably characteristics of a male transgender brain that resemble that of a woman, but to have a brain that is indistinguishable from that of a woman sounds like science fiction.

It's what has been found during examinations of the brain. They have also found that some structures of the brain of homosexuals resemble that of the opposite sex.

I also have a much bigger issue with those who I view as enablers, the one's who pat people on the back who are legitimately very troubled and support a decision that at best can only offer a superfical "solution" to their condition.

There is really nothing superficial when people recognize you for who you are. The first time a few people commented that they legitimately thought a picture of me was of a woman was actually a pretty happy moment for me. And then hearing a few more people refering to me as miss, or some other female noun, and it just seemed right.
But I challenge you to put yourself into a situation where you are who you are, you know you are a guy, but because of your anatomy doesn't match that of a guys you are expected to wear women's clothing, behave like a woman, do all those womanly things, and it's non-stop that people are calling you by that which you are not. It's so bad you can't even stand to look at yourself in the mirror. What do you do for yourself? Keep living by everyone else's expectations, or live your own life as you know it was supposed to be?

 

[-Peacemaker-]

FWIW, I didn't claim anything was undecided. I I said that there are PHDs on both sides of the debate as issue over whether or not these things are mental illnesses demonstrates . I'm actually suggesting that one side of the debate most likely being dishonest. The divide among the "medical" community is indicative of the fact that this is a moral argument in addition to a scientific one. People are betting their lives and from my pespective their souls on how they behave sexually. I don't know if a scientific study is enough to soften a heart. As far as my mind being made up on this transgender thing, you first hint that I'm being close minded in in the next sentence confirm exactly what I had made my mind up about that these brains are not indistinguishable from each other.

Let's deconstruct this.


Mixing up sexual orientation with gender identity. They're different.

"isn't telling us".

Classic example of unproductive us-vs-them mentality.

Characterizing the argument as undecided. This is kind of like what American religious folk do with evolution sometimes; characterize the debate as though it's still neutral or up-in-the-air when it's not.

Homosexuality was removed from the DSM (which is the American Psychiatric Association's standard) as no longer being a mental disorder. Gender Identity Disorder is being replaced with Gender Dysphoria. There are guidelines to follow for therapists to identify Gender Identity Disorder / Gender Dysphoria and treat it, and the treatment does not involve trying to change the individual's gender identity.

There are always some religiously-inspired people in medical or psychiatric communities trying to argue from the diminishing perspective that LGBT issues can be 'cured' but from a more rational, evidenced-based viewpoint separate from religion there aren't exactly a lot of professionals advocating such things.

^The mind is made up prior to and regardless of any and all evidence to the contrary.

Brains of transgendered people are not completely indistinguishable from their target gender. But certain parts do mirror their target gender. It would be a fallacy to assert that physical gender identity is equally dispersed across the entire brain.

While biological observations provide evidence of a physical cause of the problem, it doesn't address the decades of observation that gender identity (whether in gender-normal people or those that have gender dysphoria) cannot really be changed once it's established. Unfortunately due to the social pressures like the ones apparent in this thread, many people try decades of mental gymnastics trying to fit in their physical sex until it leads to suicide, or establishing and leaving a family, or other major things.

 

[Maya3]

Peacemaker,
You need to learn some more from real sources.

What you are doing here is hurting people and embarrassing yourself.

Maya

 

[-Peacemaker-]

If your sources are saying it's a choice, then they are not credible sources. One pretty good way to judge credibility is just how many people overall support an idea. Very few endorse the idea that homosexuality is a choice, while an overwhelming amount of individual professionals and organizations alike state that it is not.

Not with respect to whether it's a choice but whether it is an inherently broken lifestyle. I don't doubt that for many people it isn't a choice. I do believe it is for some people however.

 

[Debater Slayer]

FWIW, I didn't claim anything was undecided. I I said that there are PHDs on both sides of the debate as issue over whether or not these things are mental illnesses demonstrates . I'm actually suggesting that one side of the debate most likely being dishonest. The divide among the "medical" community is indicative of the fact that this is a moral argument in addition to a scientific one. People are betting their lives and from my pespective their souls on how they behave sexually. I don't know if a scientific study is enough to soften a heart. As far as my mind being made up on this transgender thing, you first hint that I'm being close minded in in the next sentence confirm exactly what I had made my mind up about that these brains are not indistinguishable from each other.

It seems to me that your opposition is rooted in a specific set of religious beliefs rather than any scientific or medical reasons.

I certainly wouldn't mind being proved wrong about that, but your posts in this thread have done nothing so far to change my impression; actually, they have only furthered it.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I don't know if a scientific study is enough to soften a heart.

Since you mentioned it, no, you usually can't. Very typically people of logic and reason is usually only swayed b counter arguments based in logic and reason while those of emotion are typically only swayed by emotional debate. I could go on about how when the studies you follow end, the long term studies have found some very nasty results, such as people who have tried to change their gender identity or sexual orientation becoming even more depressed than when they began conversion therapy. What should be obvious though isn't to some, and that is ultimately when deciding the best option for treatment the best measurement of success is the mental condition of the patient. Transsexuals almost always go from being suicidal and some of the most depressed people around to being happy and content in life, even after being, as you so blutnly put it, pumped full a hormones and having a hole carved into them. Sure there are some that do regret it (one such regret story urges that no one go through with it), and most therapist will suggest a transsexual only begin a physical transition when they would rather die than keep on living because of some of the potentially severe and harsh social repercussions. "If you can live without then don't" is how I saw one therapist put it. And if I were still pursuing psychology, I would probably say the same thing.