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Transgenders

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
In addition to addressing methodology, one must ask themselves "who exactly is giving advice and what in their own life demonstrates that they have a grip on mental health issues and how to best treat them?" If people who exhibit clear signs of being psychologically disturbed attempt to give advice on mental health it's going to be difficult to take them seriously.
How many Ph.D holders, candidates, and those pursuing them have you impressed with your ideas and thoughts? Myself, this psychologically disturbed woman, has impressed many of them who come from various areas and specialties. It's easy to dismiss people from behind a computer screen, but if you had any idea at just how well respected I am in real life, people would be questioning you for questioning the source with such brazen accusations. Even people serving as head of their department have praised my research and conclusions into not only psychology, but for also being able to relate one of my areas of specialization to many other fields, including biology and theatre.
And of course there are people on here who are actual therapist and mental health professionals, so if you want to argue against them you can, although they are going to tell you much of the same things.
 

Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I agree but I think when it comes to religious people, they use these "studies" to support their already established views of gay people.
When I was Christian, I actually didn't have a problem with gay people but I would try and convince myself to have a problem with them in order to fit into the faith. This is one of the reasons I never officially joined a church and turned away from the religion because I accepted the fact that deep down inside I didn't have an issue with homosexuality, in fact I felt more comfortable with my bisexual female friend having lesbian relationships, when she had heterosexual relationships I went into motherly protective mode.
The bible doesn't explain why God hates homosexuals and I think some religious people try and speak for God on this subject by going outside of the bible and use these "studies" to support their digust with gay relationships.
People also tend to cherry-pick what they want to hate from the Bible.

The Bible calls crossdressing and male homosexuality abominations (without any clear reasoning; it's from a 2000-3000 year old time period after all), but it also has laws about dietary restrictions, not mixing two fabrics, wearing tassels, and various specific things. (While regulating slavery and occasionally recommending genocide as an appropriate course of action).

I have never in my life seen a Christian tell people they need to wear tassels on their clothes, or that they dare not mix wool and linen. If this inconsistency is brought up, most of them will say that they're not under the "law" anymore. So why do they care about homosexuality? Their preacher Jesus never mentioned it. Paul did, but why does Paul's opinion matter?

It's entirely arbitrary, primarily because people use their religion/deity/texts in order to work with their own biases or dislikes. And I think it's pretty clear that those various prohibitions in those texts are only in there due to early forms of bias anyway. Many Christians will entirely ignore some parts of their "law" while consistently slamming transgendered people, homosexual people, etc.
 

-Peacemaker-

.45 Cal
How many Ph.D holders, candidates, and those pursuing them have you impressed with your ideas and thoughts? Myself, this psychologically disturbed woman, has impressed many of them who come from various areas and specialties. It's easy to dismiss people from behind a computer screen, but if you had any idea at just how well respected I am in real life, people would be questioning you for questioning the source with such brazen accusations. Even people serving as head of their department have praised my research and conclusions into not only psychology, but for also being able to relate one of my areas of specialization to many other fields, including biology and theatre.
And of course there are people on here who are actual therapist and mental health professionals, so if you want to argue against them you can, although they are going to tell you much of the same things.

This isn't about singling anyone out here as personal comments are not allowed on these forums. It's the basic principle of "judging a tree by its fruit" that can that can be applied to all areas of life. Off topic, didn't you say that you weren't studying psychology anymore?
 
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Wherenextcolumbus

Well-Known Member
In addition to addressing methodology, one must ask themselves "who exactly is giving advice and what in their own life demonstrates that they have a grip on mental health issues and how to best treat them?" If people who exhibit clear signs of being psychologically disturbed attempt to give advice on mental health it's going to be difficult to take them seriously.

This just shows your contempt for people with mental health issues.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
This isn't about singling anyone out here as personal comments are not allowed on these forums. It's the basic principle of "judging a tree by its fruit" that can that can be applied to all areas of life. Off topic, didn't you say that you weren't studying psychology anymore?
So how is "judging a tree by it's fruit" not singling someone out, especially when you have stated how you feel transsexuals are mentally ill. And I find it to be peculiar that you would so readily assume the role of judge, when Jesus stated in a few ways that we are not to judge others, let those without guilt cast the first stone, etc. When he was talking about judging a tree by it's fruits, he was talking about those who would claim to be his disciples, and those who were not good disciples and produced poor fruits would be cast into the fire. He wasn't talking about people in general.
15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
Matthew 7:15-23

BTW, I used to be Baptist, I know the Bible very well, and I was even supposed to become youth pastor of my old church when the youth pastor then moved away.
And while I don't study psychology as a major any longer, I still plan on pursuing psychological anthropology in addition to other fields of anthropology, and enough schooling to be able to obtain a license to offer therapy to a GLBTQ clientele, and it will most likely be a free service for the students of whatever university(ies) I may be affiliated with, given the academic nature of my degree and career choices that will have me being employed mostly by universities and colleges.

 

-Peacemaker-

.45 Cal
So how is "judging a tree by it's fruit" not singling someone out, especially when you have stated how you feel transsexuals are mentally ill.

In the context of the verse, we are all trees. It's also very important to take this opportunity to explain that deeming somone "mentally ill" is not a personal attack just as saying someone has a weak heart or weak lungs isn't an attack on them. The problem is the stigma attached to mental illness that leads people who have a legitimate health problems to deny them and convince others to do the same
 
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Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
In the context of the verse, we are all trees. It's also very important to take this opportunity to explain that deeming somone "mentally ill" is not a personal attack just as saying someone has a weak heart or weak lungs isn't an attack on them. The problem is the stigma attached to mental illness that leads people who have a legitimate health problems to deny them and convince others to do the same
But being transsexual is not a mental illness. It is labeled as such though to stigmatize an entire population of people as "looney" even though we are no more crazy or sane than any other people. I have even read one article that suggests transsexuals tend to have higher than average IQs. Now I do believe such a study most likely inaverdently ended up only capturing a small sample of the T-population, as the study group where those seeking therapy, but never-the-less there are many of us who are scientist, computer engineers, and even various sorts of medical positions. Attaching a label of mental illness on transsexuals does not hold, because the only part of it that fits the requirements for a mental illnes is the prolonged mental anguish it causes during the struggles of having an identity crisis and that it has such a strong impact on the quality of life. After that is solved though, and the person begins to live as the sex they identify as, such issues subside. According to many post-op transsexuals, the anxieties of gender dysphoria vanish after having genital surgery.
You can say there is something wrong with our minds all you want, but fewer and fewer people are agreeing with that, especially those who actually work with transsexuals.
 

-Peacemaker-

.45 Cal
But being transsexual is not a mental illness. It is labeled as such though to stigmatize an entire population of people as "looney" even though we are no more crazy or sane than any other people. I have even read one article that suggests transsexuals tend to have higher than average IQs. Now I do believe such a study most likely inaverdently ended up only capturing a small sample of the T-population, as the study group where those seeking therapy, but never-the-less there are many of us who are scientist, computer engineers, and even various sorts of medical positions. Attaching a label of mental illness on transsexuals does not hold, because the only part of it that fits the requirements for a mental illnes is the prolonged mental anguish it causes during the struggles of having an identity crisis and that it has such a strong impact on the quality of life. After that is solved though, and the person begins to live as the sex they identify as, such issues subside. According to many post-op transsexuals, the anxieties of gender dysphoria vanish after having genital surgery.
You can say there is something wrong with our minds all you want, but fewer and fewer people are agreeing with that, especially those who actually work with transsexuals.

Both homosexuality and gender confusion were labeled mental illnesses by psychiatry. Around the time that both groups became vocal in their opposition and gained in political power, the designations were changed (or began the process of being changed). The result of groundbreaking new scientific discoveries or a lack of backbone in the face of accusations of "bigotry"? It's an interesting question
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
But being transsexual is not a mental illness. It is labeled as such though to stigmatize an entire population of people as "looney" even though we are no more crazy or sane than any other people. I have even read one article that suggests transsexuals tend to have higher than average IQs. Now I do believe such a study most likely inaverdently ended up only capturing a small sample of the T-population, as the study group where those seeking therapy, but never-the-less there are many of us who are scientist, computer engineers, and even various sorts of medical positions. Attaching a label of mental illness on transsexuals does not hold, because the only part of it that fits the requirements for a mental illnes is the prolonged mental anguish it causes during the struggles of having an identity crisis and that it has such a strong impact on the quality of life. After that is solved though, and the person begins to live as the sex they identify as, such issues subside. According to many post-op transsexuals, the anxieties of gender dysphoria vanish after having genital surgery.
You can say there is something wrong with our minds all you want, but fewer and fewer people are agreeing with that, especially those who actually work with transsexuals.
Actually that's not strictly true... part of the justification for keeping it in the DSM is that it provides a means to get insurance companies to medical coverage for transition. :cool:
 

Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
In some circles, talking to invisible beings would be considered a form of mental illness. Admittedly I tend to frown on such behavior but I try not to judge that lifestyle and instead would happily allow them legal freedom to do so.

Homosexuality used to be listed as a mental illness but has since been removed. (Since there really is no inherent problem with it; just prejudice). Gender Identity Disorder / Gender Dysphoria is currently listed as a mental illness, but the treatment for that generally includes medical treatment and hormones to correct the problem and focuses on the body rather than the mind after research has indicated that this is the way to fix it. It's debatable what type of problem it should be listed as, since medical and mental health professionals find that changing gender identity doesn't work and changing the body does work so it's more like a medical issue. Overall those that transition to the other sex are generally treated by professionals as having a medical problem rather than a psychological problem despite the fact that Gender Dysphoria is in the DSM.

It would probably be a much easier problem for them to work through if there was far less discrimination. If their family, friends, and employers were familiar with the medical research, and happily and lovingly helped them work through the biological changes while providing emotional support and acceptance (like we do for just about any other physiological challenge), things wouldn't have to be so difficult. Instead, a subset of them often face family rejection, friend rejection, get fired, get called things like "it" or "tranny" or are generally disrespected. One in a several hundred people is inter-sexed in some way or transgendered, so as a society we really need to be more informed and educated about gender identity overall.

One of the reasons I'm fairly familiar with transgendered topics (besides personally knowing more than one person that transitioned) is that as a former resident assistant at a university, I was part of a building that was specifically meant for LGBT individuals (they could of course live anywhere on campus but if they specifically wanted a place that was potentially friendlier to them the LGBT area was an option). I was assigned there as a resident assistant randomly. Some of the areas that students could live in had specific purposes: like all engineers, or all people on sports teams, or all people who identify as LGBT in some way, etc.

The LGBT area had individual bathrooms that were not gender specific in order to help transgendered individuals feel comfortable regardless of what stage of transition they were in, since they didn't have to make any choices about which gendered restroom to use. As employees there, we had to read legitimate research on both homosexuality and transgenderism so that we weren't bad at our jobs. I ended up reading extra professional/medical info on transgenderism on my own time because the philosophical aspects of gender identity were interesting to me and it was a bit more complicated to deeply understand overall.

What helped me understand it was realizing that there is a separation between personality and gender identity. I understood early on that sexual orientation and gender identity were distinct, but it took a bit of extra time for me to understand that personality traits and gender identity were distinct.

For example, there could be an extremely 'feminine' gay man. The second you meet him, you naturally assume he must be gay by his voice tone, movements, appearance, etc. And yet he may not have gender dysphoria at all; he could be entirely happy as a male. Similarly, you could have the most 'masculine' woman. You don't view her as very feminine. But she could be very happy as a woman.

On the other hand, you could have a genetic male that has a female gender identity despite not being overwhelmingly feminine. He might even be less publicly 'feminine' than the previously described gay man, and yet he has gender dysphoria. He specifically feels he is female, is extremely depressed in a male body which therapy does not address, and a transition towards a female body solves her problem by altering the body to be feminine to match her gender. Likewise, there are women that really feel that they are males and cannot exist happily in a female body. So they transition to being males. There are various studies that suggest that certain areas of the brain, like the stria terminalis, are different for transgendered people in the sense that they more closely resemble the target gender rather than their genetic sex.

Overall, the transgendered people I have known have been some of the most courageous people I have known. They deal with this relatively little-known medical problem of gender dysphoria, face harsh discrimination in some cases, sometimes go through potentially painful and expensive procedures to correct the mismatch between gender and sex. It must take a great amount of self-knowledge and perseverance. The best we can do as a society is understand the issues, understand the medical problem, and make it so that the only obstacles they face are only biological rather than cultural. If we work with 3000 year old prejudices or modern prejudices or are just uneducated and highly opinionated on the topic in general, then we're going to screw it up and cause harm.

What is considered 'mental illness' is fairly flexible and changing. While there are some clearly mentally unstable individuals for all sorts of reasons, the more subtle issues between the brain and the body require more nuance in understanding. Things like sexual attraction, gender identity, or talking with invisible beings can be considered by some cultures to be forms of mental illness while other cultures may do more research to understand them and learn to understand that some of those things are not mental illnesses at all. Research showed that homosexuality shouldn't really be considered a form of mental illness and was removed from being listed as such. Transgenderism has been listed under different names (with the most recent being a shift from 'Gender Identity Disorder' to the less explicit 'Gender Dysphoria') but is now very much treated as a physiological medical problem rather than something that needs to be altered in the mind.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Both homosexuality and gender confusion were labeled mental illnesses by psychiatry. Around the time that both groups became vocal in their opposition and gained in political power, the designations were changed (or began the process of being changed). The result of groundbreaking new scientific discoveries or a lack of backbone in the face of accusations of "bigotry"? It's an interesting question
How is it an interesting question? It used to be widely accepted that to be black was to be inferior, but they mobilized, gained political power, and things have improved for the black-community, although there is still much room for further improvement. Homosexuality was considered a disorder, but when it was realized that there really is no disorder, only anguish brought on by fears and anxieties of the bigotry of others.
And you will also need to demonstrate that being transsexual is the source of any sort of mental handicaps that do not revolve around the "hacked up" argument because there are all sorts of corrective surguries that require cutting and snipping, but no one really thinks about that stuff.
And if you want to see just how horribly mutilated post-ops are, the below picture contains a picture of a genetic females genitals next to a post-op transsexuals genitals. I just do not see any signs that she was cut and hacked up.
Results.aspx
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
Both homosexuality and gender confusion were labeled mental illnesses by psychiatry. Around the time that both groups became vocal in their opposition and gained in political power, the designations were changed (or began the process of being changed). The result of groundbreaking new scientific discoveries or a lack of backbone in the face of accusations of "bigotry"? It's an interesting question
Lots of things used to be considered mental illnesses until we learned better.

Somehow I doubt that the a group representing less than 10% of the population somehow bullied the other 90%. :sarcastic

wa:do
 

-Peacemaker-

.45 Cal
Lots of things used to be considered mental illnesses until we learned better.

Somehow I doubt that the a group representing less than 10% of the population somehow bullied the other 90%. :sarcastic

wa:do

The gay movement was the beneficiary of the sexual revolution in that as attitudes toward sex began to change in mainstream America it was far easier to find allies than it would've been 100 years before.
 

-Peacemaker-

.45 Cal
Because superstition was replaced by knowledge.

I couldn't agree more. What a much stronger country we are today with more babies than ever born out of wedlock without stable families. How superior we are morally today after the some 50-100 million abortions that have taken place since Roe v. Wade, just around the time the sexual revolution was gaining real power. Need we pull up the stats on children born out of wedlock? How about the rate of suicide, depression, crime, and drug us that increase exponentially for kids born out of wedlock? Many of those numbers are similar for members of the homosexual community and while they choose to play the "oppression card" to explain these phenomenon these children have no such card to play.
 

Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I couldn't agree more. What a much stronger country we are today with more babies than ever born out of wedlock without stable families. How superior we are morally today after the some 50-100 million abortions that have taken place since Roe v. Wade, just around the time the sexual revolution was gaining real power. Need we pull up the stats on children born out of wedlock? How about the rate of suicide, depression, crime, and drug us that increase exponentially for kids born out of wedlock? Many of those numbers are similar for members of the homosexual community and while they choose to play the "oppression card" to explain these phenomenon these children have no such card to play.
Are you serious?

You're pulling Roe v. Wade in a discussion about transgendered people and to some degree homosexual people? This just continues the deflection of your points from our previous exchange of posts.

My post was about superstition being replaced by knowledge to further understand homosexuality and your posts are about abortions (which generally come from heterosexual sex).

There seems to be a lot of confusion in your posts between terms. Either that or whenever you would otherwise have to provide rational points in a debate you instead change the subject.
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
I couldn't agree more. What a much stronger country we are today with more babies than ever born out of wedlock without stable families. How superior we are morally today after the some 50-100 million abortions that have taken place since Roe v. Wade, just around the time the sexual revolution was gaining real power. Need we pull up the stats on children born out of wedlock? How about the rate of suicide, depression, crime, and drug us that increase exponentially for kids born out of wedlock? Many of those numbers are similar for members of the homosexual community and while they choose to play the "oppression card" to explain these phenomenon these children have no such card to play.
You have some kind of farytale view of our recent history... did you grow up watching a lot of 50's TV?

What the heck does your little rant against the evils of the "sexual revolution" have to do with people being Transgendered?

wa:do
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
The gay movement was the beneficiary of the sexual revolution in that as attitudes toward sex began to change in mainstream America it was far easier to find allies than it would've been 100 years before.
And what does that have to do with being Transgendered? :sarcastic

wa:do
 
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