Transgenders

[Father Heathen]

I couldn't agree more. What a much stronger country we are today with more babies than ever born out of wedlock without stable families. How superior we are morally today after the some 50-100 million abortions that have taken place since Roe v. Wade, just around the time the sexual revolution was gaining real power. Need we pull up the stats on children born out of wedlock? How about the rate of suicide, depression, crime, and drug us that increase exponentially for kids born out of wedlock? Many of those numbers are similar for members of the homosexual community and while they choose to play the "oppression card" to explain these phenomenon these children have no such card to play.

The problem with sex in the U.S. is that people aren't properly educated about it. Sex isn't talked about in a respectful, informative manner. Here it's either portrayed as a dirty taboo or as something cheap and exploitative. Europe for example has sexual freedom without the prudish hang-ups, yet they don't have the issues like we do here. It's about being responsible with the freedoms one has.

As for abortion --->

 

[-Peacemaker-]

Are you serious?

You're pulling Roe v. Wade in a discussion about transgendered people and to some degree homosexual people? This just continues the deflection of your points from our previous exchange of posts.

My post was about superstition being replaced by knowledge to further understand homosexuality and your posts are about abortions (which generally come from heterosexual sex).

There seems to be a lot of confusion in your posts between terms. Either that or whenever you would otherwise have to provide rational points in a debate you instead change the subject.

I'm suggesting there is one healthy way to live sexually and that the fruit that comes from that way testifies to the veracity of that statement. The issues of trangenderism and homosexuality are absolutely tied into the other forms of what I would call reckless sexual behavior such a sex outside of marriage. I'm suggesting that the fruit of all these behaviors that I call reckless is the same. Mental/emotional problems, higher rates of alcohol and drug abuse, higher rates of suicide are the fruit of all the sexual behaviors that the Christian God just so happens to frown on. Could it be because he actually knows what he's talking about?

 

[painted wolf]

I'm suggesting there is one healthy way to live sexually and that the fruit that comes from that way testifies to the veracity of that statement. The issues of trangenderism and homosexuality are absolutely tied into the other forms of what I would call reckless sexual behavior such a sex outside of marriage.

Except that me and my spouse show that you are mistaken.

Not to mention all the other happy couples out there with Transpartners.

I'm suggesting that the fruit of all these behaviors that I call reckless is the same. Mental/emotional problems, higher rates of alcohol and drug abuse, higher rates of suicide are the fruit of all the sexual behaviors that the Christian God just so happens to frown on. Could it be because he actually knows what he's talking about?

That isn't a result of sex... but of the brutal and often violent repression people suffer. Usually in the name of your "Christian" God.

Bullying is the problem.

wa:do

 

[Penumbra]

I'm suggesting there is one healthy way to live sexually and that the fruit that comes from that way testifies to the veracity of that statement. The issues of trangenderism and homosexuality are absolutely tied into the other forms of what I would call reckless sexual behavior such a sex outside of marriage. I'm suggesting that the fruit of all these behaviors that I call reckless is the same. Mental/emotional problems, higher rates of alcohol and drug abuse, higher rates of suicide are the fruit of all the sexual behaviors that the Christian God just so happens to frown on. Could it be because he actually knows what he's talking about?

Lots of suggestions, little research.

The 'fruit' of uneducated arguments, bigotry, or discrimination are real. On the other hand, there aren't very many arguments against homosexuality that are not religiously based, and not many arguments against transgenderism either. It's just a matter of research as well as compassion to actually understand the situation.

Mental issues, higher rates of suicide and alcoholism? We're talking about several groups of people that are routinely called abominations, not allowed to marry their loved ones, and are legally discriminated against.

That's the same type of argument used against people of African descent during years of inequality or against women during times when we couldn't even vote. Step 1) cause harm. Step 2) imply that their disadvantaged status is caused by themselves. I suggest you look at the actual medical and psychological research. There aren't many medical/psychiatric professionals out there (relative to the overall profession) that consider transgenderism or homosexuality to be harmful. In fact, one form of therapy that some transgendered individuals go through is how to accept themselves and how to deal with discrimination and with uneducated individuals that may be opinionated but not informed.

It seems to me that if we're talking about suicide, alcoholism, and mental/emotional problems of LGBT individuals then we should take a really clear look at many of the Christian lifestyles in this country and address the issues that are within them. This way the Christian lifestyle can hopefully cause less harm over time as we seek to correct some of the issues that are associated with that lifestyle.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Mental/emotional problems, higher rates of alcohol and drug abuse, higher rates of suicide are the fruit of all the sexual behaviors that the Christian God just so happens to frown on. Could it be because he actually knows what he's talking about?

If your god made me this way, and put me into a society that hates my existence, then no, he doesn't know what he's talking about. He also said it's ok for a husband to sell his wife and daughters into slavery, and condones slavery in general, so I tend to disregard much of what your god has to say.
And sense you brought up Roe V. Wade, what about this?

Samaria will bear her guilt; for she has rebelled against her God. They will fall by the sword. Their infants will be dashed in pieces, and their pregnant women will be ripped open." Hosea 13:16

 

[-Peacemaker-]

Interesting that a procedure we view a common place and normal is a tool with which God exacts vengeance in the Bible

 

[Penumbra]

Interesting that a procedure we view a common place and normal is a tool with which God exacts vengeance in the Bible

The Israelites proposed that their deity instructed them to do all sorts of things such as commit genocide, regulate slavery, etc.

Are you using this culture and their deity as a moral standard with which to compare the modern world to?

 

[-Peacemaker-]

The Israelites proposed that their deity instructed them to do all sorts of things such as commit genocide, regulate slavery, etc.

Are you using this culture and their deity as a moral standard with which to compare the modern world to?

I'm suggesting that even in a culture that was backward according to Jesus' standards, abortion was considered a punishment for a crime

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Interesting that a procedure we view a common place and normal is a tool with which God exacts vengeance in the Bible

For real?

Samaria will bear her guilt; for she has rebelled against her God. They will fall by the sword. Their infants will be dashed in pieces, and their pregnant women will be ripped open." Hosea 13:16

Pregnant women getting ripped open isn't commonplace. Just obnoxiously stating the obvious here.

The argument is going all over the place. Penumbra pointed out earlier that what was once a discussion (a discussion, btw) about transgenderism somehow began to introduce homosexuality, then the sexual revolution, then Roe vs. Wade.

I wonder what's next when the discussion introduces anything else regarding sexual purity laws based on shame and honor codes....maybe how rape victims are to be forced to marry their rapist?

Because of course we all know this is relevant to discussions regarding transgenderism.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

I'm suggesting that even in a culture that was backward according to Jesus' standards, abortion was considered a punishment for a crime

Do you really think that people who are pro CHOICE, don't realise the trauma in "ripping a woman open" and making her have a miscarriage? Being pro CHOICE and an advocate for safe legal abortion when women want it or need it, isn't the same as ripping a woman open, kicking her in her stomach or whatever other means of violence to bring on a miscarriage.
Forced miscarriage is a woman hating punishment, yes.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

@peacemaker, "the fruit?" As someone else pointed out Lesbian couples tend to produce good fruit. I was born out of wedlock and consider myself lucky that my parents never got married and for most of my life I was raised in a matriarchy. If my parents were married I would of grown up around abuse. Being a single parent isn't financially ideal but for some women it's a better option for their children's emotional welfare than a nuclear family.

 

[Maya3]

@peacemaker, "the fruit?" As someone else pointed out Lesbian couples tend to produce good fruit. I was born out of wedlock and consider myself lucky that my parents never got married and for most of my life I was raised in a matriarchy. If my parents were married I would of grown up around abuse. Being a single parent isn't financially ideal but for some women it's a better option for their children's emotional welfare than a nuclear family.

Definitely!

Maya

 

[tumbleweed41]

Both homosexuality and gender confusion were labeled mental illnesses...

As was Female Hysteria (diagnosed as women with sexual desires) and Drapetomania (the "unnatural" desire of black slaves to be free).



Thank goodness for progress.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Interesting that a procedure we view a common place and normal is a tool with which God exacts vengeance in the Bible

I'm suggesting that even in a culture that was backward according to Jesus' standards, abortion was considered a punishment for a crime

Source?

 

[Maya3]

As was Female Hysteria (diagnosed as women with sexual desires) and Drapetomania (the "unnatural" desire of black slaves to be free).



Thank goodness for progress.

Yeah really, and lets not forget how hysteria was treated by ignorant doctors. (though of course they didn't know that they were ignorant but seen as professionals in high standing.)

Maya

 

[-Peacemaker-]

As was Female Hysteria (diagnosed as women with sexual desires) and Drapetomania (the "unnatural" desire of black slaves to be free).



Thank goodness for progress.

I can assure you I'm the last person preaching the infallibility of "science"

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I can assure you I'm the last person preaching the infallibility of "science"

Well, at least the last person to be able to meaningfully comment on science. Or, religion for that matter.

 

[tumbleweed41]

I can assure you I'm the last person preaching the infallibility of "science"

So your bringing up the topic was a strawman?

 

[-Peacemaker-]

So your bringing up the topic was a strawman?

If you'd actually read this conversation you would've seen that its status as a mental illness was a piece of evidence demonstrating the fact that it is not unanimously agreed upon that homosexual behavior is harmless, contrary to what gays would like us to believe. The debate over its status as "mental ilness" is simply one small piece of evidence demonstrating this though admittingly not one of the stronger pieces precisely because of the fallible nature of "science". I also did ask a question: was it through groundbreaking new insights or political pressure that the designation "mental illness" was changed? Not being an expert on that issue I didn't attempt to give a definative answer, but I do think the question is interesting.

 

[Maya3]

If you'd actually read this conversation you would've seen that I wasn't making any definative statements except the fact that it is no unanimously agreed upon that homosexual behavior is harmless, contrary to what gays would like us to believe. The debate over its status as "mental ilness" is simply one small piece of evidence demonstrating this. I also did ask a question: was it through groundbreaking new insights or political pressure that the designation "mental illness" was changed? Not being an expert on that issue I didn't attempt to give a definative answer, but I do think the question is interesting.

How would homosexual behavior be harmful?
And which behavior are you talking about?

The reason the status was taken out? Because people realized that it is NOT a mental illness, but an orientation that occurs to about 10 % of the human population all over the world.

Maya