Transgenders

[-Peacemaker-]

There is so much generalization and moving the goal posts here.

You said people with same sex attraction were dealt a lousy hand, to which I asked why they would possibly be considered as having been dealt a lousy hand outside of the discrimination they face from heterosexuals. To which you replied "are you really telling me that someone who has had over 50 sex partners has really found contentment?"

What in the world does that have to do with my post?

I'm suggesting that their inclination is not something that pleases God even if they were born with it, that it is simply a sympton of a broken world. I'm suggesting that people who attempt to satisfy such desires are doomed to fail at finding true contentment.

 

[Penumbra]

I'm suggesting that their inclination is not something that pleases God even if they were born with it, that it is simply a sympton of a broken world.

So to be clear your primary reasons for your statement are intangible ones for which you cannot provide any direct evidence or specific reasoning, correct?

I'm suggesting that people who attempt to satisfy such desires are doomed to fail at finding true contentment.

Then you'd be demonstrably incorrect about that.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I don't deny that people, if they were born with such urges for the same sex, were dealt a lousy hand.

Other than discrimination, and costs, and having to go to someone to tell them who you are so they can tell a doctor who you are (the requirements of seeing a therapist for years before you can have genital surgery is actually a very good thing, it's just frustrating though to have to jump over hurdles to be you), it's really not that bad. Actually through this experience the things I have become aware of has been very empowering, and has made it easier to see the in between of things. It's also allowed me to very easily take in and accept the practices of other people and cultures on a level that makes it easy or me to approach other people, regardless of their past and who they are (and I have met some people that others would judge to be rotten), as just another human being. I have also learned to understand myself on a very deep and intimate level, and how to realize what really motivates me. I would have to say if it wasn't for the discrimination, it would too bad of an experience because of the unique perspective on the world and getting to know ones self to such a deep level. Sure there are some things that are lost and cannot be regained, such as a childhood and for most the adventures of being a teenager and even as a young adult, and then some like not being able to have children are probably not too far away, but how many people get to see the world from both a female and male perspective, even if the one perspective is misery.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

So to be clear your primary reasons for your statement are intangible ones for which you cannot provide any direct evidence or specific reasoning, correct?


Then you'd be demonstrably incorrect about that.

Surely theres no argument that the world isn't broken. We don't need to reduce that statement to an equation to be convinced of it. We also should'nt need a PHD to see that someone who has had 50-100+ sex partners is chasing for something that they obviously aren't finding. And let's not pretend that people who adhere to your position are actually demonstrating reverence for science. They are simply showing reverence to the scientists who are saying what they want to hear. Conveniently when making their argument, they leave out all of the "scientific" findings which would suggest their position is incorrect. They make no mention of them whatsoever. In fact, if you only listened to them you might get the impression that opposition to their position doesn't even exist.

 

[Penumbra]

Surely theres no argument that the world isn't broken. We don't need to reduce that statement to an equation to be convinced of it. We also should'nt need a PHD to see that someone who has had 50-100+ sex partners is chasing for something that they obviously aren't finding. And let's not pretend that people who adhere to your position are actually demonstrating reverence for science. They are simply showing reverence to the scientists who are saying what they want to hear. Conveniently when making their argument, they leave out all of the "scientific" findings which would suggest their position is incorrect. They make no mention of them whatsoever. In fact, if you only listened to them you might get the impression that opposition to their position doesn't even exist.

You keep dodging my questions.

You said people with same sex attraction were dealt a lousy hand, but haven't answered why you think that's the case. You merely brought up an intangible statement (god) with no clear reasoning.

You brought up people with 50 sex partners and now it's 50-100+ sex partners but that has nothing to do with my question about why people with same sex attraction should be considered as having been dealt a lousy hand. All I'm seeing here is really uninformed and unfocused responses.

Look how these generalizations go. It's a thread about transgendered people, which flows into homosexuality which flows into promiscuity throughout the course of the discussion.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

You keep dodging my questions.

You said people with same sex attraction were dealt a lousy hand, but haven't answered why you think that's the case. You merely brought up an intangible statement (god) with no clear reasoning.

You brought up people with 50 sex partners and now it's 50-100+ sex partners but that has nothing to do with my question about why people with same sex attraction should be considered as having been dealt a lousy hand. All I'm seeing here is really uninformed and unfocused responses.

Look how these generalizations go. It's a thread about transgendered people, which flows into homosexuality which flows into promiscuity throughout the course of the discussion.

Just take out the God part of my response then and you should be satisfied. I'm saying that homosexuals are burdened with an inclination that makes them prone to chasing something that wasn't designed to fill them. If we really need to look for some objective evidence apart from reports of number of sex partners as well as general level of mental health how about we look between the legs?

 

[methylatedghosts]

I'm saying that homosexuals are burdened with an inclination that makes them prone to chasing something that wasn't designed to fill them.

Bollocks. I'm filled quite often, and I'm more than happy, thank you very much. On top of that, I have no need to be doing any chasing. They all come to me

 

[Kerr]

It's not just about sex. Violence and intolerance towards transsexuals is so severe that even significant others have been harassed, beaten, and even killed. Actually to be romantically involved with a transsexual takes about as strong of a character as it does to actually transition. From the perspective of many, it's no different than being gay.

I remember seing a movie once where the main male character was investigating a murder of a transsexual man. Turns out an employee at a local gas station, who had an very innocent habit of peeking into the ladies bathroom through a hole or hidden camera or something, went nuts when he realized "she" was a "he". If I remember correctly, the movie also featured people saying that the murderer should get a medal rather then being punished. I really hope it isnt like that for people, but I it can be .

 

[Kerr]

Are you really telling me that someone who has had over 50 sex partners has really found contentment? That type of behavior just screams unsatisfaction. i put it this way because though homosexuals are a community known for having a rather loose definition of monogamy, I don't want to single them out. There are heterosexuals who behave like this as well. I'd say this type of behavior on a wide scale indicates that people aren't handling their bodies according to factory specs

I dont think every gay person has had over 50 sex partners. Some might have, of course, but I dont consider that to be an issue due to their sexual orientation. Assuming it is an issue, of course. For some people it might be what is working for them... saying that because I dont know what I am talking about, so I prefer not to make assumptions .

 

[LuisDantas]

So much prejudice against either homosexuals or transgenders is as disgusting as it is silly. That being quite a lot.

 

[Maya3]

Just take out the God part of my response then and you should be satisfied. I'm saying that homosexuals are burdened with an inclination that makes them prone to chasing something that wasn't designed to fill them. If we really need to look for some objective evidence apart from reports of number of sex partners as well as general level of mental health how about we look between the legs?

Are you aware that transgenderism and homosexuality is not the same thing?

Homosexuals are only burdened by people discriminating against them.

Also what makes you think that they have more sex partners than straight people?
Saying that they are chasing people who can't fill them is insulting.
What if I told you that you ought not to fall in love with a person of the opposite gender because it can never fill you?

Maya

 

[MysticSang'ha]

You keep dodging my questions.

You said people with same sex attraction were dealt a lousy hand, but haven't answered why you think that's the case. You merely brought up an intangible statement (god) with no clear reasoning.

You brought up people with 50 sex partners and now it's 50-100+ sex partners but that has nothing to do with my question about why people with same sex attraction should be considered as having been dealt a lousy hand. All I'm seeing here is really uninformed and unfocused responses.

Look how these generalizations go. It's a thread about transgendered people, which flows into homosexuality which flows into promiscuity throughout the course of the discussion.

Very true. I was beginning to contemplate last night how I was participating in a thread and telling my story (again, lol) where my story isn't all that relevant.

Unless the relevance means that sexuality is broken down between two distinct areas of observance: either solely heterosexual sex between a married man and woman, or everything else. And that "everything else" is dirty, shameful, and immoral, and that nothing good can be experienced in the "everything else" camp.

This has one avenue for relationship success, intimacy, and fulfillment, and it's only for straight monogamous people.

Not for me.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I remember seing a movie once where the main male character was investigating a murder of a transsexual man. Turns out an employee at a local gas station, who had an very innocent habit of peeking into the ladies bathroom through a hole or hidden camera or something, went nuts when he realized "she" was a "he". If I remember correctly, the movie also featured people saying that the murderer should get a medal rather then being punished. I really hope it isnt like that for people, but I it can be .

It unfortunately can be like that. For a number of reasons, including being transsexual, I do not plan on living in America for any longer than I have to. Of course no where is really perfect, but there are also places where you can reasonable expect to just be left alone to live your life.
One interesting fact that will help to show just how odd things can be, Iran of all places is more tolerant of transsexuals than America. Thailand is the only nation that does more sex-change surgeries than Iran.

We also should'nt need a PHD to see that someone who has had 50-100+ sex partners is chasing for something that they obviously aren't finding.

You don't realize just how deep you keep digging your hole, and how obvious you make it that you really don't understand anything about psychology. A person who has had 50-100 or more sex partners reveals nothing. Maybe they have some sort of drug problem that puts them into such situations, maybe they have a sex addiction problem, maybe they just like sex, maybe they have been in a few orgies, or maybe they are trying to use sex to fill a hole in their lives. But the number of sex partners alone is not enough, because some people do count their sex partners in the hundreds, some even boast thousands. Of course being a rock star for a few decades will provide for such an opportunity, and mean nothing more than that sex is a strong part of the rock 'n roll world.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

This has one avenue for relationship success, intimacy, and fulfillment, and it's only for straight monogamous people.

Not for me.

It's not for me either. Personally I blame the large number of relationships that end when one of the partners is discovered to be cheating on the fact our society places such a high value on monogamy even though humans are not technically monogamous creatures. It will work for some, but for some it's a life of disappointment and lack of satisfaction. Also, who is to say that a person can only love one other person, and then we have that "one true love" and "soul mate" crap in our society to try to make monogamy seem better than ideal.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

It's not for me either. Personally I blame the large number of relationships that end when one of the partners is discovered to be cheating on the fact our society places such a high value on monogamy even though humans are not technically monogamous creatures. It will work for some, but for some it's a life of disappointment and lack of satisfaction. Also, who is to say that a person can only love one other person, and then we have that "one true love" and "soul mate" crap in our society to try to make monogamy seem better than ideal.

Serial monogamy at it's best. :yes:

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I can't imagine the turmoil you must've gone through in your life. Just to be desperate enough to be willing to "alter" one's body so drastically in order to feel better demonstrates that the level of pain must be nearly unimaginable for those who haven't experienced it.

I was reminded of something in another thread: it is actually common for someone who is male-to-female to attempt to cut off their penis and/or testicles as a child, some even as an adult. As I child I even attempted this a few times, but as I'm sure you can imagine it's quite painful before a blade slices the skin.
Very literally, many transsexuals would readily and willingly choose death over living as their birth sex.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

I'm suggesting that their inclination is not something that pleases God even if they were born with it, that it is simply a sympton of a broken world. I'm suggesting that people who attempt to satisfy such desires are doomed to fail at finding true contentment.

You need to get out more and meet more gay people, I know a lesbian couple who have been together for over 6 years and are planning on getting married and a gay couple who have been together over 11 years and are married. And I know straight people who have had miserable relationships. You are really very ignorant. Try thinking for yourself and not reading a couple of lines about homosexuality in a 2,000 year old book and then make all sorts of uneducated assumptions about gay people to fit in with your medieval beliefs.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

You need to get out more and meet more gay people, I know a lesbian couple who have been together for over 6 years and are planning on getting married and a gay couple who have been together over 11 years and are married. And I know straight people who have had miserable relationships. You are really very ignorant. Try thinking for yourself and not reading a couple of lines about homosexuality in a 2,000 year old book and then make all sorts of uneducated assumptions about gay people to fit in with your medieval beliefs.

The problem is he isn't getting his information from just the Bible, alot of it is the people who masquerade as psychologist and psychiatrist at places like Focus on the Family, Family Research Council, or NAARTH. And such places are known for producing misleading statistics that typically omit long-term findings and place a major emphasis on the initial "feel-good" feelings that do happen in their studies, but such feelings are very typical for anyone changing from one life-style to another. But the happiness almost always fades with treatments such as reparative therapy, while the happiness is generally much longer lasting, even in the face of social odds, when an individual is allowed to embrace themselves and be themselves. But the people who publish the garbage that Peacemaker has been reading do not include such findings, and they do not include how many of there patients eventually become more depressed than they were when they began treatment, some of them even more suicidal, that most drop out of therapy, and that only a very few actually stick with the program and find happiness in it.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

The problem is he isn't getting his information from just the Bible, alot of it is the people who masquerade as psychologist and psychiatrist at places like Focus on the Family, Family Research Council, or NAARTH. And such places are known for producing misleading statistics that typically omit long-term findings and place a major emphasis on the initial "feel-good" feelings that do happen in their studies, but such feelings are very typical for anyone changing from one life-style to another. But the happiness almost always fades with treatments such as reparative therapy, while the happiness is generally much longer lasting, even in the face of social odds, when an individual is allowed to embrace themselves and be themselves. But the people who publish the garbage that Peacemaker has been reading do not include such findings, and they do not include how many of there patients eventually become more depressed than they were when they began treatment, some of them even more suicidal, that most drop out of therapy, and that only a very few actually stick with the program and find happiness in it.

I agree but I think when it comes to religious people, they use these "studies" to support their already established views of gay people.
When I was Christian, I actually didn't have a problem with gay people but I would try and convince myself to have a problem with them in order to fit into the faith. This is one of the reasons I never officially joined a church and turned away from the religion because I accepted the fact that deep down inside I didn't have an issue with homosexuality, in fact I felt more comfortable with my bisexual female friend having lesbian relationships, when she had heterosexual relationships I went into motherly protective mode.
The bible doesn't explain why God hates homosexuals and I think some religious people try and speak for God on this subject by going outside of the bible and use these "studies" to support their digust with gay relationships.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

In addition to addressing methodology, one must ask themselves "who exactly is giving advice and what in their own life demonstrates that they have a grip on mental health issues and how to best treat them?" If people who exhibit clear signs of being psychologically disturbed attempt to give advice on mental health it's going to be difficult to take them seriously.