True and False Prophets - Just and Honest Determination

[WonderingWorrier]

It does not need my belief to set that standard, as Baha'u'llah set the standard with proclaiming a Message guven by God.

Baha'u'llah proclaiming to have a message given by God is a standard that includes anyone who proclaims to have a message given by God. That would be a standard that can't tell the difference between false prophets and true prophets. That would be a standard needing your belief.

 

[Brian2]

No not back to front. Straight to the point. But you continue to only name false prophets and you still haven't identified a true prophet outside of the Bible like I asked.

Can you name another true prophet and explain your reason for the acceptance, or not?

The little church I attend has prophets who proclaim the Word of God to the world.
If I do not know what the gospel is from the Bible then I would not know what a true prophet should be proclaiming.

 

[Brian2]

Of course they believe they are following the Bible. But to do that they have to find alternative ways to interpret the Bible.

No they don't really believe they are following the Bible. There is so much of the Bible that they deny, they cannot believe they are following it. They know they are following Baha'u'llah at the expense of what the Bible says.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Baha'u'llah and the Bab have no problem in claiming that the Bible is not the truth.

That is just plain wrong. Fake news is the new word for such opinions.

Feel free to quote where the Bab and Baha'u'llah have made that comment.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Which he is? Yes, in your opinion. And if Baha'u'llah is the promised one then he is wrong. But... what if Baha'u'llah is not the promised one? Then you're wrong.

Fortunately, Baha'u'llah is "I Am".

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

That is just your opinion. Your opinions are neither trustworthy or truthful.

If the opinions arere founded on truth, they are both trustworthy and truthful.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Baha'u'llah proclaiming to have a message given by God is a standard that includes anyone who proclaims to have a message given by God. That would be a standard that can't tell the difference between false prophets and true prophets. That would be a standard needing your belief.

With a just and honest determination, one can find the difference between a true and false prophet.

Regards Tony

 

[WonderingWorrier]

The little church I attend has prophets who proclaim the Word of God to the world.
If I do not know what the gospel is from the Bible then I would not know what a true prophet should be proclaiming.

How you hear the Words of God is how you could know what a true prophet should be proclaiming. It is your way of identifying.

Like have a look at this:

The bread is the flesh and the wine is the blood:

Bread - Oil - Wine
Flesh - Bone - Blood

As you can see the Bread is the Flesh, and the Wine is the Blood. Those are true words spoken. According to combining those two layers of words.

And Oil is the bones:
"As he clothed himself with cursing like as with his garment, so let it come into his bowels like water, and like oil into his bones". Psalm.

Everything Jesus says is spoken according to the law of the prophets.

True prophets speak proclaiming the law within their words. False prophets don't know the law and try to imitate what they don't understand. It takes seconds to identify if a prophet has any law in their words.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Yes, how do we know any of these ancient stories are true?
And that's the problem. All they have is a belief. Yet, that "belief" becomes their truth. Whatever their religion says, that is what is true and real.

Mostly they are fake, in both, ancient scriptures or the new ones.
If they did not do that, the world will be colorless, no strife.
So we should thank these fake prophets/sons/messengers/manifestations/mahdis.

 

[Aupmanyav]

From my pov and the Biblical pov they are false prophets.
It's not a matter of proof, it is a matter of faith that the Bible is true.
However if you believe that, then the proof is there by comparing what the Bible says with what Muhammad and Baha'u'llah and the Bab etc have said.

Your POV is not the whole world's POV.
That again is your POV. Mine is nothing without proof.
I have done that. Jesus plagiarized Torah, Muhammad plagiarized Torah and Bible, Bahaollah plagiarized Torah, Bible and Qur'an.
Nothing new with anyone, only blah-blah, blah.

 

[Brian2]

Your POV is not the whole world's POV.
That again is your POV. Mine is nothing without proof.
I have done that. Jesus plagiarized Torah, Muhammad plagiarized Torah and Bible, Bahaollah plagiarized Torah, Bible and Qur'an.
Nothing new with anyone, only blah-blah, blah.

My pov is that Jesus fulfilled the Law and prophets and that Muhammad and Baha'u'llah plagiarized the Torah and Bible and denied a lot of the Torah and Bible.

 

[Aupmanyav]

My pov is that Jesus fulfilled the Law and prophets and that Muhammad and Baha'u'llah plagiarized the Torah and Bible and denied a lot of the Torah and Bible.

Good for Jesus, but he is not relevant to many people.

 

[Brian2]

That is just plain wrong. Fake news is the new word for such opinions.

Feel free to quote where the Bab and Baha'u'llah have made that comment.

You are right. I don't think I have seen a statement from the Bab or Baha'u'llah that proclaims that the Bible is not the truth.
It is their teachings that in places completely disagrees with what the Bible says however.
I have read others (Shoghi Effendi, Abdul Baha) who are more open in their statements that the Bible is not all true.
I have heard lip service from Baha'is to the idea that the Bible is true and is from God, but the reality is that the Baha'is need to deny the accuracy of the Bible if they want to believe all the Baha'i teachings. But of course that is something that Baha'is don't usually do.

 

[Brian2]

Good for Jesus, but he is not relevant to many people.

He is relevant for everyone even if not relevant to a lot of people.

 

[ppp]

If the opinions arere founded on truth, they are both trustworthy and truthful.

Regards Tony

It is just your (to use your words) untrustworthy and untruthful opinion that your opinions are founded on truth.

 

[Trailblazer]

Of course they believe they are following the Bible.

No, Baha'is do not believe we are 'following the Bible.' We follow the Baha'i Writings, which is the Word of God for the age in which we now live, the Book unto which all the Books of former Dispensations must needs be referred, the Book that stands among them all transcendent and supreme.

“They that valiantly labor in quest of God, will, when once they have renounced all else but Him, be so attached and wedded unto that City, that a moment’s separation from it would to them be unthinkable. They will hearken unto infallible proofs from the Hyacinth of that assembly, and will receive the surest testimonies from the beauty of its Rose, and the melody of its Nightingale. Once in about a thousand years shall this City be renewed and readorned….
That City is none other than the Word of God revealed in every age and dispensation. In the days of Moses it was the Pentateuch; in the days of Jesus, the Gospel; in the days of Muhammad, the Messenger of God, the Qur’án; in this day, the Bayán; and in the Dispensation of Him Whom God will make manifest, His own Book—the Book unto which all the Books of former Dispensations must needs be referred, the Book that standeth amongst them all transcendent and supreme.”

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 264-270

 

[Trailblazer]

If Baha'u'llah has fulfilled all the prophecies for the return of Christ then you are actually saying that the Bible is wrong since the Bible has prophecies that Baha'u'llah has not fulfilled.

Baha'u'llah has fulfilled all the prophecies for the return of Christ, since He was the return of Christ.

The prophecies for the messianic age have not all been fulfilled yet since we are only 172 years into that age, which will last no less that 1000 years.
More of those prophecies will be fulfilled as time goes on.

Point to a prophecy that has been fulfilled by Baha'u'llah.

Micah 7:12 “In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria, and from the fortified cities, and from the fortress even to the river, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain.”

He shall come from Assyria: At that time Assyria was a large area. Baha’u’llah and His family lived in the part that was Persia, now Iran, in the city of Tihran.

and from the fortified cities: Baha’u’llah was banished from city to city: After being released from the Black Pit dungeon in Tihran in 1852, His family and companions had only a short time before being sent to the fortified city of Baghdad. While living in Baghdad, He gained such a large following that the enemies where shocked. Right away He was banished again, this time to the fortified city of Istanbul.

The Governor of the city refused many times to fulfill the orders that he received to banish Him again. Finally forced to follow orders, Baha’u’llah was banished again to the fortified city of Adrianople. He was honored and praised, and shown respect everywhere, until He was finally sent to the most horrific of all places, the fortress of Akka, where it was expected that He would succumb to the terrible conditions.
and from the fortress even to the river: It was while in Baghdad that the Tigris river became a special place, as Baha’u’llah crossed it to the Ridvan Garden. April 21, 1863 was the fulfilment of prophecy, as that was when Baha’u’llah declared to those around Him His Station as the Manifestation of God.

and from sea to sea: After His banishment in Baghdad, His exile was by way of the Black Sea. Still a prisoner He crossed the Black Sea from Sinope on His way to Constantinople. After the banishment in Adrianople, He crossed the Mediterranean Sea from Gallipolis in Turkey, embarking at Alexandria, Egypt, then on to the fortress of 'Akka, the most desolate of cities.

and from mountain to mountain: The time in Baghdad was turbulent with opposition. To protect His family and companions Baha’u’llah went to the Kurdistan mountains. There He lived in poverty, but the area was magnetized by His presence. After two years, He was persuaded to return to Baghdad.

The other mountain was in Israel, Mount Carmel, where He had docked before His final journey to Akka. Later He had a chance to return to Mount Carmel, to pitch His tent. Here He wrote the Tablet Of Carmel, surrounded by pilgrims looking for the return of Christ to descend from heaven. Mount Carmel is the headquarters of the Baha’i Faith. What we see there now is the fulfillment of the following prophecies:
Isaiah 35:1-2 “The wilderness and the solitary place shall be glad for them; and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose. It shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice even with joy and singing: the glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the glory of the LORD, and the excellency of our God.”

 

[TransmutingSoul]

You are right. I don't think I have seen a statement from the Bab or Baha'u'llah that proclaims that the Bible is not the truth.
It is their teachings that in places completely disagrees with what the Bible says however.
I have read others (Shoghi Effendi, Abdul Baha) who are more open in their statements that the Bible is not all true.
I have heard lip service from Baha'is to the idea that the Bible is true and is from God, but the reality is that the Baha'is need to deny the accuracy of the Bible if they want to believe all the Baha'i teachings. But of course that is something that Baha'is don't usually do.

The issue you face is that you are not the judge of anyone's spirit. This is the Bible, that anyone who claims to be a Baha'i, would need to embrace, as it is indeed a sure spiritual guide.

"THIS book is the Holy Book of God, of celestial Inspiration. It is the Bible of Salvation, the Noble Gospel. It is the mystery of the Kingdom and its light. It is the Divine Bounty, the sign of the guidance of God." 'Abdu'l-Bahá 'Abbás. (Written by 'Abdu'l-Bahá in Persian)

As a Baha'i I embrace the Bible in this light, in the light Abdul'baha showed us with that Inscription in the Old Bible, still on show in the City Temple, and event still celebrated every year.

Abdul'baha in England, was invited to speak in many churches, and from the City Temple pulpit to an evening congregation at the special desire of the Pastor, the Reverend R. J. Campbell, he was invited to give a talk about the Baha'i Faith.

Maybe you can see the Baha'i in a better light from Reverend Campbell's introductory comments?

"We, as the followers of the Lord Jesus Christ, who is to us and will always be the Light of the World, view with sympathy and respect every movement of the Spirit of God in the experience of mankind, and therefore we give greeting to 'Abdu'l-Bahá in the name of all who share the spirit of our Master, and are trying to live their lives in that Spirit. The Bahá'í Movement is very closely akin to, I think I might say is identical with, the spiritual purpose of Christianity."

So you can also quote was is unchristian about the Baha'i way of life, be honest, what is the difference between in what Love we show for God? We are not talking about differences of opinion, it is practice of Faith in service to humanity that is the fruit.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

No, Baha'is do not believe we are 'following the Bible.' We follow the Baha'i Writings, which is the Word of God for the age in which we now live, the Book unto which all the Books of former Dispensations must needs be referred, the Book that stands among them all transcendent and supreme.

“They that valiantly labor in quest of God, will, when once they have renounced all else but Him, be so attached and wedded unto that City, that a moment’s separation from it would to them be unthinkable. They will hearken unto infallible proofs from the Hyacinth of that assembly, and will receive the surest testimonies from the beauty of its Rose, and the melody of its Nightingale. Once in about a thousand years shall this City be renewed and readorned….
That City is none other than the Word of God revealed in every age and dispensation. In the days of Moses it was the Pentateuch; in the days of Jesus, the Gospel; in the days of Muhammad, the Messenger of God, the Qur’án; in this day, the Bayán; and in the Dispensation of Him Whom God will make manifest, His own Book—the Book unto which all the Books of former Dispensations must needs be referred, the Book that standeth amongst them all transcendent and supreme.”

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 264-270

The best way I see I can describe this is by the use of the Hidden Words.

Baha'u'llah said the Hidden Words contains the Essence of all past scriptures. So the entire purpose of the Quran and the Bible can now be read in the meditations found in the "Hidden Words".

The Hidden Words | Bahá’í Reference Library

A work consisting of short passages revealed by Bahá’u’lláh in Persian and Arabic in 1857/58 during His exile in Baghdad, translated by Shoghi Effendi.

www.bahai.org

"He Is the Glory of Glories

This is that which hath descended from the realm of glory, uttered by the tongue of power and might, and revealed unto the Prophets of old. We have taken the inner essence thereof and clothed it in the garment of brevity, as a token of grace unto the righteous, that they may stand faithful unto the Covenant of God, may fulfill in their lives His trust, and in the realm of spirit obtain the gem of divine virtue....."

So the entire inner Essence of the Bible (all.past scriptures) is now available in this in 153 short meditations (Adds to 9) 71 in part 1 and 83 in part 2.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I have read others (Shoghi Effendi, Abdul Baha) who are more open in their statements that the Bible is not all true

Again a comment made that is trying to make a case out of a statement made in context to question being asked of Shoghi Effendi about the accuracy of a writing of Baha'u'llah, and in explaining Shoghi Effendi said this. "The Bible is not Wholly authentic, and in this respect is not to be compared with the Qur'án, and should be wholly subordinated to the authentic writings of Bahá’u’lláh". Shoghi Effendi, Lights of Guidance, p. 501

Shoghi Effendi did not say the Bible did not contain truth, but that some aspects are not entirely authentic.

Academics do support this view and have argued over this since the Gospels were compiled, some Gospels were even discarded in the process as being seen as not authentic enough. Shoghi Effendi's statement can be seen to be given in that context. (There are still arguements with scholars over some parts of the Bible).

Regards Tony