True and False Prophets - Just and Honest Determination

[Trailblazer]

That is not physically impossible and the scripture tells us that there are angels and Jesus will be sitting on His throne. You deny it only because the Bible disagrees with Baha'i.

Matthew 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

Even if I was not a Baha'i I would not believe those verses were intended to be interpreted literally. Sitting on a throne is symbolic for having power. Angels with him refers to humans who were with him as angels. It is physically impossible for all nations to be gathered before one man and for him to separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, so we know that is symbolic.

These are things that will happen as a result of the return of Christ, not things that He will do Himself.

The judgement is talking about Jesus judging people through how they have loved their fellow man.
Interestingly it tells us that they inherit the Kingdom which was prepared for them since the creation of the world (Matt 25:34) IOW they don't have to work politically to create the kingdom.

Matthew 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

The following commentary is a correct interpretation of that verse.

To illustrate the separation of one individual from another, Jesus likens himself to a shepherd who separates his flock of sheep from the goats who are grazing in the same pasture. The sheep receive the place of honor and inherit God's kingdom (25:34). Jesus calls the sheep those who are “blessed by my Father” (25:34).
Commentary on Matthew 25:31-46 - Working Preacher

Jesus separated the sheep from the goats when He walked the earth. The sheep followed Jesus and became Christians, the goats went their own way. But Jesus won't be doing any more separating since that work was completed. The sheep are being separated from the goats right now, and the sheep will follow Baha'u'llah and receive a place of honor in God's kingdom.

Baha'u'llah is still dead, your belief about the dead just disagrees with the Biblical teaching.
Jesus is in heaven in His spiritual body, the resurrection body, which as 1Cor 15 tells us, is the physical body which has been transformed to be immortal and incorruptible. Jesus rose from the dead with this body. His body is not still in the grave or the Jews would have shown it and that Jesus had not risen from the dead.
I don't know what you meant by MIA.

Baha'u'llah is not any more dead than Jesus since both of their physical bodies are dead.

The physical body of Jesus is missing but it is not in heaven because there is nothing physical in heaven.
Both Jesus and Baha'u'llah are alive in heaven living in spiritual bodies.

The physical body of Jesus was not transformed to be immortal and incorruptible.
The physical body of Jesus died and it was raised (transformed into) a spiritual body that will last forever.

1 Corinthians 15 New Living Translation

44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.
50 What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever.
51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed!

That is no more than the claim of Baha'u'llah/Baha'i. The Bible teaches a completely different story. You can claim that the Bible is not true,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, which you do claim when you say that Jesus dispensation is over, but you cannot claim that the Bible has the teachings that Baha'i teaches.

The Bible does not say that Jesus' dispensation is forever. That was only an assumption made by Christians because that is what they want to believe.

Where does the Bible say that Jesus dispensation is forever?

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The Bible does not explicitly say that Jesus' dispensation is forever, but it does describe a dispensation of the fulness of times that is thought to be the climax of God's eternal plan of redemption in Christ:​

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The dispensation of the fulness of times is thought to be a world order where Jesus politically and/or spiritually governs the heavens and the earth.​

What it says about the fulness of times is true but the fulness of times is not the climax of God's eternal plan of redemption in Christ.
Humanity has already been redeemed by Christ, so there is no need for a second redemption.

The dispensation of the fulness of times is a world order where where Baha'u'llah, not Jesus, politically and/or spiritually governs the heavens and the earth.

What has the beliefs of the Jews got to do with it?
Psalm 2 tells us it is about the Son of God. Baha'i teaching is that Baha'u'llah is not the Son of God, but Jesus is the Son of God.
Psalm 2 tells us that the Son of God is given the nations and rules and judges them.
You can deny that Psalm 2 is true if you want but it is ridiculous to claim that it is about Baha'u'llah when even Baha'i says he is not the begotten Son of God.

Even if Psalm 2 is about Jesus, the Son of God, it does not say that the Son of God is given the nations and rules and judges them.
Read it. It does not say that.

Psalm 2

Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord, and against his anointed, saying,
3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
7 I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
11 Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

 

[Trailblazer]

To investigate if Jesus is the promised Messiah we should use the OT scriptures. That is the only way to do it.

Do you think that is what people who recognized Jesus did, checked to see if Jesus fulfilled the OT prophecies?

I highly doubt that is what people did. I think that they recognized Jesus for His person, what He did on His mission, and His teachings, which they got from the NT.

It is the same with investigating the truth of Baha'u'llah's claims.
If Baha'u'llah is not the one prophesied then he is not the one prophesied and should not be believed.

Baha'u'llah is the one prophesied but using prophecies will never work because Christians will continually deny the correct meaning of the prophecies, claiming that they are about Jesus or something else.

Baha'u'llah's person, what He did on His mission, and what He wrote reveal the truth of His claims.

 

[Brian2]

When He defined what "clouds of heaven" means, that was part of His explanation of why Muhammad fulfilled that prophecy. He replying to concerns by an uncle of the Bab, about whether the Bab was who He said He was, and showing that actually the Bible could be interpreted in such a way that Muhammad could fit. Then in the rest of the book Baha'u'llah similarly discussed mostly sayings of Muhammad and the Imams to establish to the uncle that the Bab fit those prophecies and the uncle was convinced because the uncle already knew the Bab personally, and knew that the Bab was a good person.

Neither Muhammad nor the Bab nor Baha'u'llah came the same way that the disciples saw Jesus ascend to heaven in the clouds (Acts 1:9-11) so definitely a redefining of "clouds" had to happen but that did not help really because none of them were the same Jesus anyway. (Acts 1:9-11)

 

[TransmutingSoul]

This seems to make no sense at all.

Why would we ever think that there's some threshold of moral goodness where, if a person exceeds it, their claims about the future become reliable?

Does this work with other skills? If someone is good and honest enough, can we rest assured that they're an excellent welder, for instance?

Very few people can live the high moral and virtuous life, giving all of their time to others. The Messengers are already known for this capacity, before they become known as a Messenger.

Regards Tony

 

[WonderingWorrier]

I have already explained that at least twice.

No. You haven't actually explained anything. You say Baha'u'llah is a true prophet and Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is a false prophet. And you say you know them by their fruits. Baha'u'llah is a good fruit and Mirza Ghulam is an evil fruit.

So you are saying there is a difference between them by saying True/False and Good/Evil. But you haven't explained the difference /.

You have not given an answer. You are talking around an answer. Some people are very good at talking around an answer without actually saying anything. To speak in a vague way leaves what is said open to interpretation and since people interpret everything they hear into a way that they themselves can understand it can sound like an answer, the answer they wanted to hear.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

It is up to you to make that judgement, I am of the opinion my judgement is for me.

If your judgement of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is only based on the assumption that Baha'u'llah is truthful then you would just be spreading bahai rumours without any facts. Do you think assuming Baha'u'llah is right and spreading rumours is honest and just determination?

With Mirza Ghulam Ahmad he had a religious education and prided himself on his ability to acquire that knowledge

As if Baha'u'llah didn't?

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad uses Muhammad and the Quran, and does not have an independent God given Revelation.

Jesus is mentioned by name 98 times throughout the writings of Baha'u'llah. Baha'u'llah uses the Bible and the Quran.

Like Baha'u'llah says "Will ye not recognize how the mountains have become like flocks of wool"
Which is said in the Quran: "And the mountains will be like wool" Quran 70:9

That is but 2 aspects I have considered, and that is where I leave it.

I conclude with the observation that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad did embrace and share much good from his learnings.

So your two aspects also sound exactly like Baha'u'llah and conclude with observation of good fruit of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

How about that. At any rate what I said was "no problem, everyone has a right to their own statements". Something I find more significant is the different meanings in the verses of the Bible. It would be nice if we could explore it w/o fighting or circling.

Ok. I will take a look at what you think is more significant than what I am saying. I am open to carefully considering what you have to say. So please explain to me how the "different meanings" concept works.

Do you know how many different meanings there are to each Bible verse?

How exactly do you sort the different true meanings from the false meanings?

Does each different meaning continue into the next verse?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

If your judgement of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is only based on the assumption that Baha'u'llah is truthful then you would just be spreading bahai rumours without any facts. Do you think assuming Baha'u'llah is right and spreading rumours is honest and just determination?

I will finished there, this is fruitless.

Regards Tony

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Very few people can live the high moral and virtuous life, giving all of their time to others. The Messengers are already known for this capacity, before they become known as a Messenger.

Regards Tony

You don't seem to have addressed my point at all.

Can you step through the logic here?

- Person X is much more moral and virtuous than an average person.
- therefore, ______.
- therefore, Person X can reliably predict the future (i.e. make real prophecies).

What goes in the blank?

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Who has made the right choice, those that have chosen to not look, or those that have looked and found the Biblical prophecy was indeed fulfilled?

False dichotomy. Many have looked and been unimpressed. For me, the right choice was the avoidance of god beliefs and religion.

Every eye has indeed seen this great and dreadful "Day of the Lord", yet many choose not to he born again

Why would one turn to religion for answers? Religion has been saturating the planet for millennia including the worst parts of the world. It's time to look elsewhere for answers.

The old Bible passage about removing a plank frpm one's own eye first, before removing splinters from another eye, fits well with such assumptions about other people being homophobics

You did exactly as he suggested. He wrote, "But like with what happened with homosexuality... When people quoted the Baha'i teachings, Baha'is had to do some quick thinking to try and not look like homophobics" and you immediately deflected away from yourselves back to him.

Homophobia isn't a splinter. It's a giant sequoia. You marginalize and demonize a large law-abiding segment of society based in nothing more than the belief that some god nobody ever sees disapproves of them for reasons never given - people trying to support themselves and their families and serving their communities just like their straight neighbors whose churches call them sinners who offend their god.

Very few people can live the high moral and virtuous life, giving all of their time to others. The Messengers are already known for this capacity

The so-called messengers and prophets are not morally superior according to my humanist values. Talking about gods and pontificating on piety is not moral behavior. Thats what priests, rabbis, pastors and imams do. It serves nobody but the institutions that promote their religions. Churches, synagogues and mosques pepper the landscape, yet little of value comes from them - just more of the same talk. Moral instruction comes from example, not words alone. Telling people "Love one another" and "Be good" accomplishes nothing. This is what you are calling exemplary moral behavior.

In my tradition, we value action over prayer: "Two hands working can do more than a thousand clasped in prayer"

Let's return to your question above, "Who has made the right choice, those that have chosen to not look, or those that have looked and found the Biblical prophecy was indeed fulfilled." I ask, who has made the right choice, those promoting religion as an answer or those saying to look beyond that.

The considerable contributions of humanism to the human condition compared to religion include science over superstition, freedom over slavery and peonage, education over indoctrination, egalitarianism over homophobia and misogyny, and democracy over the divine right of kings.

There is where you'll find the recipe for world peace, but we need help. Presently, the religions, the authoritarian regimes, and the insufficiently regulated capitalists are opposing the humanists.

 

[Pete in Panama]

It's true, the Baha'is have to use some creative interpretations of the Bible that just cannot be logically true.

It'd be nice to study the text w/ an eye for clarity over what's known and what isn't. Do please let me know if you're interested.

 

[Pete in Panama]

That depends on the time frame. There is increasing conflict in the world at this time, and it's not likely to get better over the next decades (in my opinion) If you go back to the first part of the 20th century, there was WWI and WWII.

Sounds like we agree about the increase of unity between the second half of the 20th century compared to the first. Over the past two decades I'd argue that the world is maturing but we can agree that it's harder to demonstrate. As for the future, predictions are hard to make w/ any guarantee of accuracy.

 

[Pete in Panama]

Why was that your "understanding"?
Then you asked for my thoughts?
And this is how you feel?
That your wasting your time?
That I'm in a "food-fight" of negativity with you?
What is a "meaningful" conversation to you?
To only look at what I like about the Baha'i Faith and not mention the things that I don't believe are true?
But why post here if you don't want to hear what other people have to say, whether positive or negative? Even when Baha'is "consult" with each other, isn't the "clash" of differing opinions allowed?

You've asked eight questions here & my thinking is that most --if not all-- are rhetorical questions that do not require an answer. That's my guess & if one or more of these really is a serious question where you need information and you're asking, please share and I'd be happy to help you if there's anything you need.

The over all thrust of your post seems to reflect a sense of frustration and please understand that I do not wish any harm to you nor conflict with you. I deeply and sincerely apologize for anything I may have said from which you could have reason to take offense. My goal is simply a search for truth.

 

[Trailblazer]

No. You haven't actually explained anything. You say Baha'u'llah is a true prophet and Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is a false prophet. And you say you know them by their fruits. Baha'u'llah is a good fruit and Mirza Ghulam is an evil fruit.

So you are saying there is a difference between them by saying True/False and Good/Evil. But you haven't explained the difference.

I have explained exactly why I believe Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is a false prophet.
I believe that Baha'u'llah is a true prophet, because I believe that He told the truth about who He was.
Honesty is good fruit. His teachings and laws were also good fruit.

If Baha'u'llah was a true prophet Ahmad has to be a false prophet, given what Baha'u'llah wrote about no more prophets for 1000 years from 1852 AD.

I believe that Ahmad was a false prophet because he made a false claim, claiming to be the return of Christ and the messiah.
He was either lying or deluded but either way the claim is false.
I believe that Ahmad stole teachings from Baha'u'llah in an effort to look like the messiah.
Lying and stealing are evil fruit.

That is what I believe.
You are free to make your own determination and hold your own belief.

 

[Pete in Panama]

Ok. I will take a look at what you think is more significant than what I am saying. I am open to carefully considering what you have to say. So please explain to me how the "different meanings" concept works.

Do you know how many different meanings there are to each Bible verse?

How exactly do you sort the different true meanings from the false meanings?

Does each different meaning continue into the next verse?

Those are fantastic questions that lie at the heart of any study of the Sacred Texts.

For me the Bible has value because it is divine, significant, and rich w/ extensive content. That means there's stuff in there that I don't yet understand. Not only that, there are many parts that give me a new understanding when I read them the first time, and then years later I can gain yet a better comprehension in ways that I had not been capable of before.

This kind of process is not particularly magical, this is also my experience when I study say, a math text like my old university book on differential equations. I'd read that sucker 50 years ago just so I could get a "C" and move on but now I'd love to return to it and really understand it better.

So for the first question, I can tell you that I don't know how many meanings there are but I can tell you haven't come up dry yet. For the second question the Bible can be like my differential equations book in that I can gain information and that if what I read is consistent with and goes beyond what I've already learned then this suggests I'm on the right track.

Unfortunately I am not all knowing and I'm aware of the fact that my beliefs can be later understood as a mirage of self and passion. I have to always watch out and be careful.

As for the third question about the next verse, some times the context is continuous through several verses and sometimes the topic shifts and there's new topics.

My bet is that you've already had these same feelings in your Bible study.

 

[Trailblazer]

To investigate if Jesus is the promised Messiah we should use the OT scriptures. That is the only way to do it. It is the same with investigating the truth of Baha'u'llah's claims.
If Baha'u'llah is not the one prophesied then he is not the one prophesied and should not be believed.

To investigate if Jesus is the promised Messiah we should use the OT scriptures.
Jesus fulfilled some, but not all, of the OT prophecies, so that means Jesus is not the promised Messiah.
If Jesus is not the one prophesied then He is not the one prophesied and should not be believed.
To say that these prophecies will be fulfilled at Jesus' second coming is like me saying I will be able to travel around the world after I win the lottery.

To investigate if Jesus is the return of Christ we should use the NT scriptures.
Since Jesus has not returned we cannot know of Jesus has fulfilled all the predictions in the NT.
If Jesus is not the one predicted then He is not the one predicted and should not be believed.
To say that you know that these predictions will be fulfilled when Jesus returns is like me saying I know I will be able to travel around the world after I win the lottery.

 

[CG Didymus]

Very few people can live the high moral and virtuous life, giving all of their time to others. The Messengers are already known for this capacity, before they become known as a Messenger.

Regards Tony

There's that claim again. Can you back it up? Were Adam, Noah, Abraham, and Moses known for being virtuous and highly moral?

Adam disobeyed God. Noah got drunk. Abraham lied about his wife. And Moses killed an Egyptian. The Bible doesn't show them as being "perfect". And why would they need to be, because the Bible doesn't make them into what Baha'is call "manifestations of God".

 

[CG Didymus]

Ok. I will take a look at what you think is more significant than what I am saying. I am open to carefully considering what you have to say. So please explain to me how the "different meanings" concept works.

Do you know how many different meanings there are to each Bible verse?

How exactly do you sort the different true meanings from the false meanings?

Does each different meaning continue into the next verse?

For Baha'is, with the resurrection and ascension of Jesus, the "false" meaning is the literal meaning. But, from what it sounds like, they don't believe anybody knew the "true", symbolic meaning until Baha'u'llah or Abdul Baha' "unlocked the Bible and NT to reveal their true meanings.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

You don't seem to have addressed my point at all.

Can you step through the logic here?

- Person X is much more moral and virtuous than an average person.
- therefore, ______.
- therefore, Person X can reliably predict the future (i.e. make real prophecies).

What goes in the blank?

They are your conclusions. The first step is to determine if they are trustworthy and truthful, which is the apex of all virtues.

If they are trustworthy or truthful, what they tell you will not be untruthful.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

I will finished there, this is fruitless.

Regards Tony

Don't worry, I'll take over for you and explain to him.

You see... Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is a lying imposter... a false prophet. Just because he has more followers than Baha'u'llah means nothing. He was not the Mahdi, and he was not the return of Jesus. That is impossible, because the Bab and Baha'u'llah were the true returns of those people.

That is... If they were telling the truth. And that's why we're here arguing and debating about the claims of the Baha'i Faith... Can they be shown to be true?

And it doesn't help their cause when they reject someone for the same reasons some of us reject their prophets.