Trump is losing the debate acting like a raving lunatic

[Kathryn]

Not "constantly." About three times. As already pointed out by several posters along with the apparent reason why.

Then quit making claims you can't back up.

She lied over and over again. And it's not a matter of "can't," it's a matter of "won't." There's a difference.

 

[anna.]

It seems anymore that most every republican is being referred to as a MAGA. Either vote for Harris or you're a MAGA.(at least here anyway)

I agree with @It Aint Necessarily So:

"For me, MAGA conservatives are Trump apologists, whereas non-MAGA conservatives like the Cheneys and The Lincoln Project consider Trump a threat to America and denounce him." That was written in response to a poster's claim of being conservative but not MAGA.

MAGA enablers are MAGA to me. That's most of the movement. It's who goes to the rallies. It's who posts on RF in defense of Trump. It's who wear the red caps. It's who buys the Trump merch.

If someone is STILL a Trump supporter, after his attempt to subvert an election, and all that is known about his actions, words, lies, liaisons with Putin, his connection to Project 2025, his love of dictators, his undermining of the Constitution and rule of law, his corruption, his felonies, sexual assaults, his cronyism with Christian nationalists, Nazis, grifters, and various and sundry sordid lawbreakers and sycophants, then yes, they are MAGA.

 

[F1fan]

Ask a person why they won't vote for Harris and the usual answer is I don't like dems and/or their platform. That's politics.

It's a historic fact that politics will have divided choices. It's one thing to not like Obama's policies, or McCain's policies, or Romney's policies, or even Clinton's policies in 2016. What Trump is since 2020 should, ideally, in a sane and stable nation, be something that is rejected in a near complete agreement. That Trump has around 47% is jaw dropping. It makes no sense whatsoever. Harris having policies that are not liked is irrelevant given who Trump is, and what MAGA intends to do if he's elected. Trump supporters remind me of drug addicts with a problem that they just can't understand, and are so angry at those trying to get him help that he wants to take everyone else down with him.

Ask a person why they won't vote for Trump and the usual answer is I don't like Trump or I hate Trump. That's emotion.

False. Trump exhibits behavior and attitudes that no rational mind can support. The man is disturbed and clearly unfit. The only emotions is the fear that he could actually get elected. Many former Trump officials are warning voters to not vote for him. The same with many republicans. The same with many in the mental health field. And national security. I've never seen a coalition of experts and professionals ever warn voters about a candidate. It's not emotional, it is very rational to oppose Trump.

 

[Copernicus]

Only in the sense that a sales tax is normally added on at the point of sale. Tariffs are a national tax on goods entering the country, but they act more like the European version of a sales tax--the VAT (Value Added Tax). Calling it a "national sales tax" is a good way of pointing out how tariffs represent government taxes that drive up the price that consumers pay at the point of sale. You are really making a distinction without a difference.

No, a tariff is not on all products, a national sales tax is. That is a big difference.

No, and I never said that a tariff was a tax on all products. No sales tax is a tax on all products. A tariff is a national tax, because it applies a tax to certain goods entering the country, but not to all goods entering the country. The only sense in which a tariff is not a "national sales tax" is that it does not get charged to goods at the point of sale. It gets imposed on the goods at the point of entry, and it is already incorporated in the price at the point of sale. So the US consumer pays a higher price for the product, and part of that price gets paid in taxes to the federal government.

 

[F1fan]

Just stop.

I'm not going to stop correcting your errors and false beliefs.

I never misrepresented anything.

Yes you did. And you haven't bothered to explain how you were correct.

I even agreed tariffs can increase costs.

Do you want credit for acknowledging a fact?

They are objectively not a national sales tax.

That's why Harris referred to Trump's tariff as "Trump's national sales tax", because the Chinese imports will have added costs attached to them, and the government collects, and the consumer has to cover it when they buy the item. You are trying to split hairs. The two are essentially the same thing despite having different motivations and enforcements. Her phrase is meant to be political. You are trying to insist it's literal.

You told me I was scum anyway so I guess we are done.

I said no such thing. I said certain types of Trump supporters are scum, and you took that condemnation on yourself. You denied being a MAGA a few times, and now you have sunk so low in the rhetoric and falsehoods that you seem content with that label now. Are you retreating more and more into the MAGA redoubt as others challenge your posts?

 

[Kathryn]

Buy local!

 

[Copernicus]

Regardless of the impression she wants to give, Kathryn has admitted that she would vote for Trump/Vance, if she lived in a so-called swing state like Pennsylvania. She would definitely prefer to see Donald Trump win the election, perhaps hoping that Vance will end up replacing him at some point. MAGA enablers aren't necessarily themselves MAGA.

You use the term MAGA differently than I do. In a concurrent thread, I wrote, "For me, MAGA conservatives are Trump apologists, whereas non-MAGA conservatives like the Cheneys and The Lincoln Project consider Trump a threat to America and denounce him." That was written in response to a poster's claim of being conservative but not MAGA.

MAGA enablers are MAGA to me. That's most of the movement. It's who goes to the rallies. It's who posts on RF in defense of Trump. It's who wear the red caps. It's who buys the Trump merch.

Right. I was not calling Kathryn MAGA, but you are, because she does come off as a Trump apologist. She actually liked your post and thanked you, but I think she misunderstood what you were saying.

I'm the one NOT calling her MAGA, because she does not like him and would rather not vote for him. That's why she keeps saying she won't be voting for him, but only because she does not live in a swing state. Nevertheless, she does want him to become the next president. Just without her vote to help him get there. She has been clear that she prefers Trump over Harris and spends most of her time attacking Harris.

 

[Kathryn]

Right. I was not calling Kathryn MAGA, but you are, because she does come off as a Trump apologist. She actually liked your post and thanked you, but I think she misunderstood what you were saying.

I'm the one NOT calling her MAGA, because she does not like him and would rather not vote for him. That's why she keeps saying she won't be voting for him, but only because she does not live in a swing state. Nevertheless, she does want him to become the next president. Just without her vote to help him get there. She has been clear that she prefers Trump over Harris and spends most of her time attacking Harris.

And before her, I spent most of my time attacking Biden, because I am a registered Republican and I dislike their tactics as well as the Democrat platform. You are right, I do not like Trump at all, but I do prefer the REPUBLICAN PLATFORM over the DEMOCRAT PLATFORM. I actually dislike Trump so much that though I am voting, I will not be voting for Trump, and I do not want him to be the next President. I prefer the REPUBLICAN PLATFORM over the DEMOCRAT PLATFORM. I will say it again, I prefer the REPUBLICAN PLATFORM over the DEMOCRAT PLATFORM.

No misunderstanding on my part by the way.

 

[Copernicus]

And before her, I spent most of my time attacking Biden, because I am a registered Republican and I dislike their tactics as well as the Democrat platform. You are right, I do not like Trump at all, but I do prefer the REPUBLICAN PLATFORM over the DEMOCRAT PLATFORM. I actually dislike Trump so much that though I am voting, I will not be voting for Trump, and I do not want him to be the next President. I prefer the REPUBLICAN PLATFORM over the DEMOCRAT PLATFORM. I will say it again, I prefer the REPUBLICAN PLATFORM over the DEMOCRAT PLATFORM.

Yes, I have understood that about you from the beginning, but you are still trying to backflip your way out of admitting that you are a Trump supporter, however unwilling that support is. The reason I say that is that you admit you would vote for him to beat Harris, if you lived in a swing state like Pennsylvania. It cost me a lot of effort to get you to admit that, because you will dodge, twist, and do whatever you can to avoid admitting that you want him to win. All of that uppercase shouting doesn't change the facts.

The sad fact is that we only get two viable choices in our elections, thanks to our plurality-based voting system, thanks to Duverger's Law. So we can usually only choose one of the two major party's candidates in an election. Anything else we do--abstention, write-in, third party--simply leaves the real choice up to other voters. You have indicated that you care which of our two presidential candidates will win in November, and that would be Donald Trump. Not because he's Donald Trump, but because Trump is the one with the "R" next to his name.

 

[Kathryn]

Yes, I have understood that about you from the beginning, but you are still trying to backflip your way out of admitting that you are a Trump supporter, however unwilling that support is. The reason I say that is that you admit you would vote for him to beat Harris, if you lived in a swing state like Pennsylvania. It cost me a lot of effort to get you to admit that, because you will dodge, twist, and do whatever you can to avoid admitting that you want him to win. All of that uppercase shouting doesn't change the facts.

The sad fact is that we only get two viable choices in our elections, thanks to our plurality-based voting system, thanks to Duverger's Law. So we can usually only choose one of the two major party's candidates in an election. Anything else we do--abstention, write-in, third party--simply leaves the real choice up to other voters. You have indicated that you care which of our two presidential candidates you prefer, and that would be Donald Trump.

I prefer the REPUBLICAN PARTY to win over the DEMOCRAT PARTY. And since I don't live in a swing state like Pennsylvania, it probably doesn't matter much anyway.

 

[Pogo]

I have no use for rapists.

I also question convictions were there was no witnesses, no physical or scientific evidence used.

You accept his guilt through bias and dislike.

If you were convicted for something based on he said she said, wouldn't you like me to question it, or blindly believe it because I didnt like you?

No I would rather rely on the judgement of the 12 or so persons charged with evaluating the two persons involved under fair questioning.

Sometimes there is a significant difference in credibility and that is what juries are there to evaluate and why we use multiple people who need to agree.

 

[Copernicus]

I prefer the REPUBLICAN PARTY to win over the DEMOCRAT PARTY. And since I don't live in a swing state like Pennsylvania, it probably doesn't matter much anyway.

But it would, if you lived in Pennsylvania or if Ohio suddenly became a swing state. You really can't run away from what your party loyalty commits you to. Even Dick Cheney can do that.

 

[Kathryn]

But it would, if you lived in Pennsylvania or if Ohio suddenly became a swing state. You really can't run away from what your party loyalty commits you to. Even Dick Cheney can do that.

But I don't live in Pennsylvania, so I consider it a moot point. And neither Cheney is a role model for me.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

If someone is STILL a Trump supporter, after his attempt to subvert an election, and all that is known about his actions, words, lies, liaisons with Putin, his connection to Project 2025, his love of dictators, his undermining of the Constitution and rule of law, his corruption, his felonies, sexual assaults, his cronyism with Christian nationalists, Nazis, grifters, and various and sundry sordid lawbreakers and sycophants, then yes, they are MAGA.

Thanks for that. Broadly speaking, for me, American conservatives fall into two groups: those who denounce Trump and those who do not, which can range from those giving tacit consent to who and what he is and those that explicitly serve as his apologists.

And it's a litmus test for me. If one can't find it in himself to say that a lying, grifting, bigoted, military disrespecting, dictator admiring, election overthrowing sexual predator, stochastic terrorist, and convicted felon who rambles, slurs words, and refers to Hannibal Lecter as if he were an actual person is unfit to serve as president, then they are fundamentally different from what I consider decent people.

As I told one such poster, I wouldn't let such a person be my doctor or to house sit my dogs, whereas simply being conservative while disavowing Trump wouldn't disqualify a person from a position of responsibility. I would trust Liz Cheney to watch my home, but not JD Vance. She has principles, he doesn't. She's a good judge of character, and Vance doesn't care about character or have any.

The mental gymnastics that we are seeing among conservative voters reveals the MAGA sickness infecting even the moderates. The pools are shocking, with Trump still competitive as he spirals out of control in the public eye, and the public not being horrified.

That's America's biggest problem in my estimation. Trump will go away, but about half of the American electorate will remain ethically and intellectually challenged long after Trump is just a bad memory, and the right-wing indoctrination media will continue to capture and create new ones even if all of the existing MAGA were spirited off by extraterrestrial tonight. That tells me that America will eventually give its government back to these un-American people, and next time will probably mean that the Republicans never lose another "election" again.

I've used the analogy that being a decent person and a responsible American citizen is like working for a business with two owners that each have hiring, firing, and check-writing authority, and one brother keeps hiring dishonest CEOs that are only there for themselves and to loot the bank accounts while running the business into the ground. Eventually, you will be working according to the vision of the incompetent and dishonest brother again.

As you likely know, we expatriated, which was basically analogous to finding a new, more stable job. We chose to hitch our wagons to another star.

If Trump wins in November, I expect we'll have a lot of new American neighbors here in Mexico signing off on a second MAGA America.

Today is Mexican Independence Day. We aren't expecting any mass shootings or terrorist threats. People aren't stressed out or divided here. These are happy people with a rich culture. Throw in the great weather, natural beauty, great restaurants everywhere, and a great economy for spending (not so great for earning, though), and the problems of the world seem far away:

It seems anymore that most every republican is being referred to as a MAGA.

I specifically contradicted that claim.

Either vote for Harris or you're a MAGA.(at least here anyway)

That's closer to correct. The non-MAGA conservatives I named all endorse Harris, but there are apolitical types who self-identify as conservative but who won't vote for Harris or anybody at all and who are neither Trump apologists nor Harris detractors. They're not MAGA despite not voting for Harris.

As Taylor Swift says, 'the haters gonna hate, hate, hate, hate, hate'

She was right:

 

[We Never Know]

But it would, if you lived in Pennsylvania

And IF she lived in Arizona, Georgia, Michigan, Nevada, North Carolina, or Wisconsin.

But she doesn't.

or if Ohio suddenly became a swing state.

Since you are on if's...

If 40 other states became swing states it would be a different race.
If Biden was still in it he would probably lose.
If Trump dropped out many would be happy.
If etc etc.

If an If was a skiff we would all go for a boat ride

 

[We Never Know]

I specifically contradicted that claim.

And that's your personal opinion about yourself.
You don't speak for everyone (though sometimes I feel as if you think you do)

That's closer to correct. The non-MAGA conservatives I named all endorse Harris, but there are apolitical types who self-identify as conservative but who won't vote for Harris or anybody at all and who are neither Trump apologists nor Harris detractors. They're not MAGA despite not voting for Harris.

Some will vote for 'their party' regardless of who is on the ticket.

 

[Pogo]

And that's your personal opinion about yourself.
You don't speak for everyone (though sometimes I feel as if you think you do)

Some will vote for 'their party' regardless of who is on the ticket.

They were only following orders.

 

[We Never Know]

They were only following orders.

What orders?
Who gave them?

 

[We Never Know]

She calls them a "Trump sales tax", being careful to point out the extra cost to consumers is Trump's fault. The extra money goes to the government, just like federal taxes.

If they are bad, why did this administration keep them?(she dodged answering by the way).

Btw, Countries have been using tariffs for a long time to prop up homegrown industries by inducing citizens to buy goods produced domestically.

IOW if something from China costs as much(because of tarrifs) as something made in California, more people would buy the one made in California.

 

[Kathryn]

I don't care for the Democrat Party platform! I hate it in fact. So I will not vote for it.