Trump's mug shot

[Subduction Zone]

Innocent until proven guilty.

But a person is
-charged
-arrested
-finger printed
-mugshot taken
-have to put up a bond
-limitrd to places they can go
-limited to what they can say
-limited to who they can talk to

That sure screams innocent doesn't it lol

Innocent until proven guilty is merely a legal standard of how one is to be treated. It is quite often a legal fiction that has to be obeyed. That is why news sources will use a qualifier when discussing the crimes that Trump has been accused of, though if they wanted to they could call him a rapist.

 

[Soandso]

I'm referring to the list as a whole.

But we can break it down some and even add to it.

A person is
-charged
-arrested
-finger printed
-mugshot taken
-have to put up a bond(if one can't afford bond they stay in jail(hits the poor hard)
Those are mostly routine

Sometimes with added stipulations.
-limited to places they can go
-limited to what they can say
-limited to who they can talk to

Other stipulations that are sometimes added
-house arrest
-gps ankle monitor
-who they can be around

Doesn't that all scream innocent?

You know, I would agree for the most part. We could improve our system to be far more fair, and the increasing militarization of the police force has only compounded the issue more for the average person

Doesn't have much to do with Trump and his situation imo, but for the average American who can't afford bond or lawyer fees that worries me

 

[Shadow Wolf]

But why before he is convincted of anything?

Because it's the way things are normally done. It's a cause to celebrate that he's being treated like wverybody else.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The bail system unproportionately punishes the poor. People without sufficient means are forced to spend time in prison just because they can't make bail. Not because the are dangerous, not because they are a flight risk, but just because they are poor.

Yup. It was disappointing that it wasn't done away with here last election.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Yup. It was disappointing that it wasn't done away with here last election.

That might take a rewrite of the constitution. It does seem that jails are concentrating more on violent crimes and repeat offenders. When it comes to violent crimes the judges should know of the evidence at the time of setting bail. I can see keeping some people locked up until their trial. The danger of reoffending is too high. For petty crimes, such as shoplifting a clear address should be enough.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

That might take a rewrite of the constitution. It does seem that jails are concentrating more on violent crimes and repeat offenders. When it comes to violent crimes the judges should know of the evidence at the time of setting bail. I can see keeping some people locked up until their trial. The danger of reoffending is too high. For petty crimes, such as shoplifting a clear address should be enough.

Last I knew drug possession was still overcrowding jails and prisons and giving America a higher inmate population than even places like Russia and China.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Last I knew drug possession was still overcrowding jails and prisons and giving America a higher inmate population than even places like Russia and China.

Prisons, maybe, but that is almost always charges associated with drug use. Or at least it would be in my state. Drug use itself is just a short jail stage at the most here One has to either be caught stealing to support a habit, selling drugs, or worse to get into prison in Washington. Right now our local jail has been at about 50% and they are aiding another county by taking on some of their overflow. So it may vary from area to area. And you need to remember how China and Russia treat drug addicts and sellers. Russia at the very least has a very strict policy on drug use. Jailing every user and seller that you can find does not cure the problem, but it does seem to lower the incidence of it. I also have a feeling that Russia never handed out opiates like tic tacs as we did for a period of time.

Whatcom County wants to send 45 inmates to Everett jail | The Daily World

EVERETT — Whatcom County wants to send dozens of inmates to Snohomish County’s jail as officials there face a ballooning incarcerated population.

www.thedailyworld.com

At any rate, they are not a good example to use because they show if you are willing to oppose drug usage to the point of abusing people's rights far worse than we do that you will not have as many people in prison or jail.

Personally I think that the added freedom we have is worth the jail populations. And if we really want to fix the drug problem that will take more spending by the government than the Republicans would allow. They may not always be writing the laws, but they can oppose positive change effectively.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Prisons, maybe, but that is almost always charges associated with drug use. Or at least it would be in my state. Drug use itself is just a short jail stage at the most here One has to either be caught stealing to support a habit, selling drugs, or worse to get into prison in Washington. Right now our local jail has been at about 50% and they are aiding another county by taking on some of their overflow. So it may vary from area to area. And you need to remember how China and Russia treat drug addicts and sellers. Russia at the very least has a very strict policy on drug use. Jailing every user and seller that you can find does not cure the problem, but it does seem to lower the incidence of it. I also have a feeling that Russia never handed out opiates like tic tacs as we did for a period of time.

Whatcom County wants to send 45 inmates to Everett jail | The Daily World

EVERETT — Whatcom County wants to send dozens of inmates to Snohomish County’s jail as officials there face a ballooning incarcerated population.

www.thedailyworld.com

At any rate, they are not a good example to use because they show if you are willing to oppose drug usage to the point of abusing people's rights far worse than we do that you will not have as many people in prison or jail.

Personally I think that the added freedom we have is worth the jail populations. And if we really want to fix the drug problem that will take more spending by the government than the Republicans would allow. They may not always be writing the laws, but they can oppose positive change effectively.

America tends to arrest and incarcerate everyone who's caught with drugs. As Obama said we can't arrest our way to a solution, but groups like NORML and LEAP are still fighting against America's draconian drug laws that d9 more harm than the drugs.

 

[Subduction Zone]

America tends to arrest and incarcerate everyone who's caught with drugs. As Obama said we can't arrest our way to a solution, but groups like NORML and LEAP are still fighting against America's draconian drug laws that d9 more harm than the drugs.

I would not use the term "draconian". Don't trust me, just ask Brittney Griner. Remember, you brought up Russia and China. They have "arrested their way of the problem". It still exists, but nowhere near as bad as here. Their laws are draconian. They do work, but at a cost. I am not willing to lose that much freedom for me (okay, I don't use hard drugs, or even much in the way of alcohol and I do not count pot as a hard drug, but I do not do that either) or the people that I know. Where I live drug possession is never a primary cause for arrest. It is the behavior that accompanies drug usage that lands people in jail.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Personally I think that the added freedom we have is worth the jail populations. And if we really want to fix the drug problem that will take more spending by the government than the Republicans would allow. They may not always be writing the laws, but they can oppose positive change effectively.

What added freedoms? America is slipping and sliding down the freedom index and drug usage is a personal choice. The only appropriate and suitable solution is legalization, taxation and regulation (as we learned with alcohol).
Amd you can't claim to be free if you have more inmates than everybody else, ESPECIALLY when you have more inmates than nations under dictatorships like China.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I would not use the term "draconian". Don't trust me, just ask Brittney Griner. Remember, you brought up Russia and China. They have "arrested their way of the problem". It still exists, but nowhere near as bad as here. Their laws are draconian. They do work, but at a cost. I am not willing to lose that much freedom for me (okay, I don't use hard drugs, or even much in the way of alcohol and I do not count pot as a hard drug, but I do not do that either) or the people that I know. Where I live drug possession is never a primary cause for arrest. It is the behavior that accompanies drug usage that lands people in jail.

People's lives are ruined. Job applications don't ask if you've been found guilty, they ask if you've been arrested. Drugs--but not violent crimes--will disqualify you from a deal of federal and potentially state aid. Get caught with a joint in America in a state like Indiana? Game over, the life you planned just died.

 

[Wandering Monk]

But why before he is convincted of anything?

In case he violates the terms of release or tries to flee the country. He can be arrested.

 

[Subduction Zone]

What added freedoms? America is slipping and sliding down the freedom index and drug usage is a personal choice. The only appropriate and suitable solution is legalization, taxation and regulation (as we learned with alcohol).
Amd you can't claim to be free if you have more inmates than everybody else, ESPECIALLY when you have more inmates than nations under dictatorships like China.

One "freedom" would not be going to prison for years for just a single joint. You cannot be that unaware of how seriously drug usage is treated in Russian and China. In case you for got Brittney Griner was the US citizen and WNBA player that was imprisoned for months and would have been imprisoned for nine years for just a bit of hash oil. This is why you should in no way at all indicate that the US is worse than Russia or China. If we are willing to arrest everyone and anyone for drug offenses people will hide their addictions if they have one. They are less likely to start. Harsh harsh penalties do work at the cost of personal freedom for everyone.

 

[Subduction Zone]

People's lives are ruined. Job applications don't ask if you've been found guilty, they ask if you've been arrested. Drugs--but not violent crimes--will disqualify you from a deal of federal and potentially state aid. Get caught with a joint in America in a state like Indiana? Game over, the life you planned just died.

And again, compare that to the punishments in China and Russia.

 

[Sargonski]

He loves it so much he is willing to abuse his power while in the highest office and subvert everything it stands for and means to save it. No. He's a selfish jerk. He's Donald Trump, the same as always. I never understood his type of patriotism. No room for honor.

Can't disagree with the selfish Jerk assessment .. Despite his failings still better and far more Patriotic than Biden .. according to actions not words .. not talking Bluster here.. and using the term "honor" in the same sentence as anything Washington is not a Fit.

The Kangaroo clown show witch hunt he has been subjected to since 2016 has been beyond disturbing .. and highly Orwellian .. a new brand of Totalitarianism that the masses do not recognize .. and thus suffering the Frog in Hot Water syndrome.

I can't stand either Side ... Red or Blue .. and this identity politics ... focusing on personal nonsense rather the Person's actions in office .. what this person does for the Country .. and frankly don't care how many concubines they have on the side..

 

[Shadow Wolf]

One "freedom" would not be going to prison for years for just a single joint. You cannot be that unaware of how seriously drug usage is treated in Russian and China. In case you for got Brittney Griner was the US citizen and WNBA player that was imprisoned for months and would have been imprisoned for nine years for just a bit of hash oil. This is why you should in no way at all indicate that the US is worse than Russia or China. If we are willing to arrest everyone and anyone for drug offenses people will hide their addictions if they have one. They are less likely to start. Harsh harsh penalties do work at the cost of personal freedom for everyone.

I am aware. I mentioned Russia and China because whem it comes to inmates America has more, amd the drug laws are a very major reason as to why. And because it's shameful for a country that loves to boast it's free to have a higher incarceration rates than actual, legit dictatorships, made humiliating to add in it also adds a significant chunk to the total global inmate population. Other Western Countries have been relaxing and knocking it off and switching to goals of harm reduction.
And what do you think happens here? People do hide their addictions for fear of legal consequences and don't seek help or treatment. Research into drugs is unnecessarily amd excessively burdened, hindering addiction treatment research. And even where the penalty is death people still do it. So it's all for naught.
The simple truth is the law does more damage than the drugs.
But we've gotten so far off track I don't even remember what got us here to try to pull it back on topic.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I am aware. I mentioned Russia and China because whem it comes to inmates America has more, amd the drug laws are a very major reason as to why. And because it's shameful for a country that loves to boast it's free to have a higher incarceration rates than actual, legit dictatorships, made humiliating to add in it also adds a significant chunk to the total global inmate population. Other Western Countries have been relaxing and knocking it off and switching to goals of harm reduction.
And what do you think happens here? People do hide their addictions for fear of legal consequences and don't seek help or treatment. Research into drugs is unnecessarily amd excessively burdened, hindering addiction treatment research. And even where the penalty is death people still do it. So it's all for naught.
The simple truth is the law does more damage than the drugs.
But we've gotten so far off track I don't even remember what got us here to try to pull it back on topic.

You do not seem to realize that the reason that we have more in prison than those countries is because our drug laws are more lax. I know, it is a bit counter intuitive, but their laws are in fact draconian. They are so bad that almost no one wants to mess with them. Extremely draconian laws work. But as I said at a huge cost in the way of personal freedoms. You think that we have it bad here? Try going over there I would like more reforms here. We can do better. I only objected to your use of a term that simply is not true.

 

[anna.]

I can't stand either Side ... Red or Blue .. and this identity politics ... focusing on personal nonsense rather the Person's actions in office .. what this person does for the Country .. and frankly don't care how many concubines they have on the side..

I'd say the four current arrraignments and the Jan 6 commission focused on the person's actions in office.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

You do not seem to realize that the reason that we have more in prison than those countries is because our drug laws are more lax. I know, it is a bit counter intuitive, but their laws are in fact draconian. They are so bad that almost no one wants to mess with them. Extremely draconian laws work. But as I said at a huge cost in the way of personal freedoms. You think that we have it bad here? Try going over there I would like more reforms here. We can do better. I only objected to your use of a term that simply is not true.

Those drugs laws shouldn't exist at all. It's a personal choice.
And as I keep indicating it's a damn embarrassment a country that loves to crow how free it is is the worlds top incarcerator over a personal choice in the same realm as alcohol. And the consequences over getting caught with a joint in America has been disastrous for many. The consequences of addiction in America is addicts occasionally being scared to get help for fear of legal consequences and the treatment has been understudied amd the accepted practices mostly garbage. All in the land of the free where certain mushrooms can get you in a lot of trouble.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Those drugs laws shouldn't exist at all. It's a personal choice.
And as I keep indicating it's a damn embarrassment a country that loves to crow how free it is is the worlds top incarcerator over a personal choice in the same realm as alcohol. And the consequences over getting caught with a joint in America has been disastrous for many. The consequences of addiction in America is addicts occasionally being scared to get help for fear of legal consequences and the treatment has been understudied amd the accepted practices mostly garbage. All in the land of the free where certain mushrooms can get you in a lot of trouble.

I know. My point is that hyperbole and exaggeration do not help.