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Trump's mug shot

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
I know. My point is that hyperbole and exaggeration do not help.
It's not hyperbole or exaggeration. The War on Drugs and even before has inflated America's incarceration rate to soar above the rest of the world, including countries that are not free.
And, yes, your life as you know it is over if you ever get arrested. That alone even makes many things harder. And considering drugs have an established history of getting harsher sentences and penalties than a range of theft amd violent crimes throughout the country, yes, it's draconian.
But again this SEVERELY off topic. Make another thread if you want to continue this.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
It's not hyperbole or exaggeration. The War on Drugs and even before has inflated America's incarceration rate to soar above the rest of the world, including countries that are not free.
And, yes, your life as you know it is over if you ever get arrested. That alone even makes many things harder. And considering drugs have an established history of getting harsher sentences and penalties than a range of theft amd violent crimes throughout the country, yes, it's draconian.
But again this SEVERELY off topic. Make another thread if you want to continue this.
No, it is far from over. I know a person that did a prison stint and for once it worked. I know that is very rare. He is now a homeowner. He has a union job. It is only over if people give up. By your standards we might as well apply the death penalty. Yes, it is going to be a hard road, but most chose to become addicts in the first place. They never were forced at gunpoint to take illegal drugs. I dislike hopelessness because it can be as damaging as the opinion by many on the right that addicts are worthless and deserve what they get. Neither extreme is productive.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
No, it is far from over. I know a person that did a prison stint and for once it worked. I know that is very rare. He is now a homeowner. He has a union job. It is only over if people give up. By your standards we might as well apply the death penalty. Yes, it is going to be a hard road, but most chose to become addicts in the first place. They never were forced at gunpoint to take illegal drugs. I dislike hopelessness because it can be as damaging as the opinion by many on the right that addicts are worthless and deserve what they get. Neither extreme is productive.
Again, make another thread. This thread is about Trump amd were about to get more indepth with a sociological debate that has nothing to do with Trump (off topic is against the rules and we may both be on thin ice).
 

Yazata

Active Member
Its not the will of the people if all we have to choose from/forced to choose from are Trump and Biden.
Two bad choices only force the people to choose a bad choice.
The majority of the people want different candidates than Biden and Trump.

Isn't that what the primary elections are about? Each party presents a lineup of potential candidates and members of that party (or all voters in open primaries) vote for whichever one they favor.

The Republicans have something like a dozen candidates in the primaries in addition to Trump. The democrats have two candidates that I know of, Biden and RFK Jr. All of the other democratic possibles appear to be too intimidated by the deep state machine that pulls Biden's strings to challenge him this election cycle. (If they challenged Biden, the establishment media would crucify them and the weaponized Department of "Justice" would probably indict them for something, Putin-style.)

And in both cases, Trump and Biden appear to have far more support than any of their potential challengers. We won't really know until the primary elections actually happen next year. Things can change fast. Biden's health might fail or something that makes him drop out, in which case the democratic nomination could become an exciting free-for-all.

So I'm not sure I agree that Biden and Trump don't reflect the will of the people, if the people vote in the primary elections to make them their candidates.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Isn't that what the primary elections are about? Each party presents a lineup of potential candidates and members of that party (or all voters in open primaries) vote for whichever one they favor.

The Republicans have something like a dozen candidates in the primaries in addition to Trump. The democrats have two candidates that I know of, Biden and RFK Jr. All of the other democratic possibles appear to be too intimidated by the deep state machine that pulls Biden's strings to challenge him this election cycle. (If they challenged Biden, the establishment media would crucify them and the weaponized Department of "Justice" would probably indict them for something, Putin-style.)

And in both cases, Trump and Biden appear to have far more support than any of their potential challengers. We won't really know until the primary elections actually happen next year. Things can change fast. Biden's health might fail or something that makes him drop out, in which case the democratic nomination could become an exciting free-for-all.

So I'm not sure I agree that Biden and Trump don't reflect the will of the people, if the people vote in the primary elections to make them their candidates.
Please don't give us that "deep state" nonsense. How many Republicans ran against Trump in the 2020 election?
 

We Never Know

No Slack
Isn't that what the primary elections are about? Each party presents a lineup of potential candidates and members of that party (or all voters in open primaries) vote for whichever one they favor.

The Republicans have something like a dozen candidates in the primaries in addition to Trump. The democrats have two candidates that I know of, Biden and RFK Jr. All of the other democratic possibles appear to be too intimidated by the deep state machine that pulls Biden's strings to challenge him this election cycle. (If they challenged Biden, the establishment media would crucify them and the weaponized Department of "Justice" would probably indict them for something, Putin-style.)

And in both cases, Trump and Biden appear to have far more support than any of their potential challengers. We won't really know until the primary elections actually happen next year. Things can change fast. Biden's health might fail or something that makes him drop out, in which case the democratic nomination could become an exciting free-for-all.

So I'm not sure I agree that Biden and Trump don't reflect the will of the people, if the people vote in the primary elections to make them their candidates.
The popular vote represents the will of the people.

However, 5 times the popular vote lost...

 

Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
A person is
-charged
-arrested
-finger printed
-mugshot taken
-have to put up a bond
-limitrd to places they can go
-limited to what they can say
-limited to who they can talk to

Does that scream they are innocent?

People are arrested when there is evidence of probable cause, so certain reasonable restrictions are placed on them pending trial. Those can include incarceration until trial, although a writ of habeas corpus can get a prisoner released if the evidence for incarceration is deemed by a court to be weak. Legally, they are entitled to a presumption of innocence. What that means is that the burden is on the government to present evidence of guilt in a jury trial. Defendants are not required to prove their innocence. If the state fails to meet its burden of proof, then the presumption of innocence is maintained and pretrial restrictions are lifted.
 
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Sargonski

Well-Known Member
Those drugs laws shouldn't exist at all. It's a personal choice.
And as I keep indicating it's a damn embarrassment a country that loves to crow how free it is is the worlds top incarcerator over a personal choice in the same realm as alcohol. And the consequences over getting caught with a joint in America has been disastrous for many. The consequences of addiction in America is addicts occasionally being scared to get help for fear of legal consequences and the treatment has been understudied amd the accepted practices mostly garbage. All in the land of the free where certain mushrooms can get you in a lot of trouble.

I know. My point is that hyperbole and exaggeration do not help.

Certainly most of the Drug Laws .. and the war on Drugs liberty and freedom restrictions .. like Bank account and nother things distantly related are an anathema to the Constitutional Republic and founding principle.. Illegitimacy of Authority .. full Stop.

You can have Drug Laws be legitimate .. IFF "if and only if" - there is Overwhelming majority consent of the Public .. at least 2/3 rds or like in the case of a change to the constitution requiring 75%. If something is so nasty to society that we re going allow Gov't the power to punish .. then at least 2 out of 3 people are going to recognize this harm as really significant.

For Example -- Pot vs Meth. Pot there is little harm .. certainly no more than what is already legal (which is a huge problem for Rule of Law .. Punishment should fit the Crime .. among other things) over 60% think it should be decriminalized - not even close to the bar required to avoid "Tyranny of the Majority" -- the thing our system was designed to prevent.

Meth is a different story .. this drug is super dangerous .. and does extremely nasty things to people very quickly .. way worse than snorting Coke for example .. or even smoking it .. not comparable in terms of harm to

For Meth you are going to have more people wanting to give Govt' authority to regulate and criminalize . This works for things like incest between consenting adults or Horse-Play .. If you can get enough citizens together to say "Not in our back Yard" authority can be granted.

The problem with our system is that we no longer follow the Rules and principles .. .. on which our system was founded .. every sitting member of SCOTUS should be dismissed for dereliction of duty .. failure to interpret law and the constitution according to the DOI - and founding principles .. Rules of a Constitutional Republic.

Further .. the populace has been dumbed down such that they no longer know what those rules are .. and so do not realize they are being violated .. 12 years of School and we manage not to teach a kid the founding principle .. basics of Philosophy .. Logic - logical fallacy - what constitutes valid argument .. basics of civics .. "Legitimacy of Authority" what is the legit authority of Gov't and what is not ?

With out these basic tools there is no way for the ave citizen to make way through the daily cacophony of fallacy and bad argument reigning down on them from Politicians and the Media. Without at least the basics there is no such thing as functional democratic process within a constitutional framework.. The simple fact that Rule Number 1 = Gov't has ZERO Legitimate authority to mess with Essential liberty "Of its own Volition" .. very few people have the faintest idea .. and so they no longer react when Gov't tramples on this Liberty.

How your right to privacy doing these days lads .. didn't Biden propose monitoring all transactions greater than 600 .. didn't pass but all the other stuff did .. and with electronic money everything you do can be monitored .. though that or your phone .. heck .. Big Brother can watch you through your TV just like in the Movie "1984" which we no longer show the Children .. as might interfere with the blissfull necessary illusion that Gov't is All GOOD .. and always has your best interests .. but more importantly the interests of the collective at heart .. The name of this plague is "Utilitarianism" .. we are now in the Fallacious Utilitarianism phase .. Law on the basis of "Harm Reduction" .. what is best for the collective (supposedly as who gets to decide) with no regard for individual liberty .. and folks just accept this a legitimate .. and not the anathema that the founders wished to prevent Rule number 1 violation.
 

Sargonski

Well-Known Member
That doesn't make any sense since this certainly has not been a "kangaroo court" nor a "witch hunt".

Absolutly the whole Meuller affair was a Kangaroo clown show . and witch Hunt ... this latest nonsense more of the same .. changing the rules of the game ... Domestic Terrorism being the name of the latest in lame.

You do not understand the Rule of Law .. nor the principles of Justice so it is not a surprise that things are not making any sense to you. You are no Patriot having no understanding of Essential Liberty and/or accepting the violation of such ... anxious to bow to illegitimate authority.
 

We Never Know

No Slack
The electoral college sucks, but I wouldn't compare it to attempting to overturn the democratic process itself.
Who's comparing them?

I'm just showing the will of the people isn't always honored. Politicians do it and get by with it.

Do you remember the 2016 election when the loser became the winner.

Trump- 62,984,828 votes. Winner
Clinton- 65,853,514 votes. Loser

Its happened 3 or 4 times. Twice since 2000
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Is this true if "prison" would include re-education & labor camps?
Not sure since things like those tend to be elevated to a different problem. Like hkw their treatment of the Uyghurs in the Xinjiang province that seems genocidal in resembling Uncle Sam's treatment of the Natives here.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Who's comparing them?

I'm just showing the will of the people isn't always honored. Politicians do it and get by with it.

Do you remember the 2016 election when the loser became the winner.

Trump- 62,984,828 votes. Winner
Clinton- 65,853,514 votes. Loser

Its happened 3 or 4 times. Twice since 2000
Here's the thing. The EC was set up to disemppower slave owning states that could have easily dominated federal politics just by having a larger population due to skavery. It sucks, it's obsolete, it needs to go, but every election under the Constitution has been conducted that way amd with little controversy. It's not a valid comparison to bring it up against Trump. When it became clear he lost he started lying to try to getthe election decided by the House so he'd win. That failed because those he relied on didn't go along with it. Failing that, he tried to get swarms if his followers to disrupt it and overturn it again by forcing unusual circunstances to get the election decided by the House where he would have won.
 

We Never Know

No Slack
Here's the thing. The EC was set up to disemppower slave owning states that could have easily dominated federal politics just by having a larger population due to skavery. It sucks, it's obsolete, it needs to go, but every election under the Constitution has been conducted that way amd with little controversy. It's not a valid comparison to bring it up against Trump. When it became clear he lost he started lying to try to getthe election decided by the House so he'd win. That failed because those he relied on didn't go along with it. Failing that, he tried to get swarms if his followers to disrupt it and overturn it again by forcing unusual circunstances to get the election decided by the House where he would have won.


To my knowledge the electoral college was set up because the founding fathers didn't trust ordinary citizens to be informed enough to adequately pick the president.
And when the popular vote loses, that supports that IMO.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Not sure since things like those tend to be elevated to a different problem. Like hkw their treatment of the Uyghurs in the Xinjiang province that seems genocidal in resembling Uncle Sam's treatment of the Natives here.
It seems like less extermination,
but more forced assimilation.
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
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