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Truth: either God exists or He don't.

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
The world has been at war since the beginning and it will build up to the final battle where Jesus comes back with His army of Angels and kills all of His enemies and takes over as the the ruler of the world.
That's not going to happen, it is a fantasy. Jesus is not coming "back" to kill all of His enemies and take over as the the ruler of the world, because Jesus is not coming "back" to the world. EVER.

Why do Christians keep saying that Jesus is coming back when Jesus said He was never coming back? There is no reason for Jesus to come back because Jesus finished the work God gave Him to do. Jesus is not coming back just because Christians want Him to come back, it does not work that way.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
 

Pilgrim Soldier

Active Member
I'm not looking for anything. I see no reason to suspect there is something to look for.

YOU are the one claiming to have something.
Until you reveal what you have, I can't know what it is that you claim to have.

I'm not a mind reader........................................................



I'll evaluate what you have and how it fits your claims and see in what way it can be verified.
Like one always does with any claim and evidence one is presented with, about anything.



And I see drivel and pathetic pre-emptive accusations such as this as your way of communicating that you either:
- don't have any evidence and don't wish to acknowledge that
or
- you have evidence and you know it's exceptionally bad evidence so you go down this route to avoid embarassement.


Every time you avoid actually sharing this "irrefutable proof" you claim to have by stating such pitiful excuses, my suspicion about that only grows.

And yes, by now, after all these months, I completely am assuming that you "stop the steal" folks are either indeed purposefully lying, or you have been conned into believing it by The Great Orange Cry Baby.

Nevertheless, crazy as I am... I have an open mind and actively try to avoid dogmatic thinking, no matter how crazy some things sound. I'm always prepared to give an honest look at evidence given in support of claims - no matter how crazy they seem.


But it seems like I won't be getting any from you. Let's face it, you would have posted it from the start if you idd had such evidence. I wouldn't even have had to ask for it. It would have been posted right next to the claim by default the first time you brought it up.

So I'm not holding my breath.
I do apologise if I came across as making false claims, but the evidence I have is not visible to the naked eye so there's an issue right there.
Now I can see you saying "there now, he has no evidence". but just before you climb back on your high horse consider the fact that the wind is invisible but it rips people apart like rag dolls in a hurricane.
So don't be so hasty to dismiss invisible things as insignificant fantasies.

God said, "an evil and wicked generation seeks after a sign but no sign will be given to them". This means that God deliberately hides the truth from unbelievers. God said, it gives him pleasure to reveal the truth to simple and humble people and hide it from the proud intelligent people.

I appreciate your honesty in saying you're not looking for anything, God said, "for none seek the truth, all have gone astray" This is a very serious indictment against fallen mankind, none of us seek the truth we have all gone off to pursue and fulfill our own wicked desires.

We have 3 enemies trying to destroy us at all times, 1 the Devil and His Demons, 2. our own fallen nature which seeks to fulfill the lusts of our flesh. 3. the world itself seeks to destroy us, that includes the people in it and the natural world such as spiders and snakes and every other dangerous and hostile thing in the world.

We can't afford to relax and pretend there's no war and everything will be just fine, as it's not and it won't be in the future. We can't fight these enemies on our own, this is why Jesus came into the world to fight the enemy and win and give us the prize of victory for free, all we need to do is trust Him.
 

Pilgrim Soldier

Active Member
The technology wasn't that great. And we *know* how they did it: it was even described in the pyramids themselves.

I have no fear of 'being a target'. Your conspiracies are all hokum from what I can see.
But we don't know how the ancients managed to calculate and construct such massive structures, using materials which had to be transported vast distances.
I've read many articles where many different theories were offered but none were plausible, so we still don't have any definite answers
 

Pilgrim Soldier

Active Member
Doesn’t have anything to do with me; billions of the world’s population aren’t biblical scholars, and don’t speak the languages in which the Bible is written. Nor do they live in the ancient cultures of the Bible. That’s why people like me study biblical scholarship in our educational process. “What billions of people believe about the Bible” does not indicate that those beliefs are, in any way, legit.
God never said we had to study the Bible in order to inherit eternal paradise. He just commanded us to believe in Him, and He would take care of the rest.
Billions of God's people (believers) never saw a Bible and many couldn't read either, So it has nothing to do with how well you know the Bible. It has everything to do with our relationship with God, We either stand condemned to an eternity in hell or we stand justified and righteous.
The worst thing we can do is make God our enemy, since He has full ownership of every speck of dust in the universe and He will judge every single person in history.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
I do apologise if I came across as making false claims, but the evidence I have is not visible to the naked eye so there's an issue right there.

Why would that be an issue? We know of *many* things that are not visible to the naked eye: infrared light, ultraviolet light, radioactivity, ultrasound, atoms, radio, etc. NONE of those are visible to the naked eye, but we know all of those exist.

But, we have *evidence* for all of these. For example, a radio gives evidence of radio waves. A geiger counter gives evidence of radioactivity.

Now I can see you saying "there now, he has no evidence". but just before you climb back on your high horse consider the fact that the wind is invisible but it rips people apart like rag dolls in a hurricane.
So don't be so hasty to dismiss invisible things as insignificant fantasies.

Nobody dismisses things simply because they are not visible. But, for example, the wind is simply air in motion. We can measure how fast it is moving, we can measure how it interacts chemically. We can liquefy air, separating it out into its components. We can solidify air. We can weigh it.

It isn't just our inability to *see* it that is at issue. There are many other methods of detection that can be used.

So, give a method of detection for your claims and the evidence from those methods. Then we can evaluate whether they are reliable.

God said, "an evil and wicked generation seeks after a sign but no sign will be given to them". This means that God deliberately hides the truth from unbelievers. God said, it gives him pleasure to reveal the truth to simple and humble people and hide it from the proud intelligent people.

And how is this possible if the evidence is available to everyone? And if it *isn't* available to everyone, in what sense is it reliable evidence?

You can claim you have 'special abilities' to pick up this extra evidence. OK, we can *still* determine the reliability of that evidence.

As an example, the chemist Dalton (who formulated the modern version of atomic theory) noticed that other people who he trusted talked about colors he, himself, did not see. It turns out that Dalton was color blind.

But, is it possible for a color blind person to know that other people *can* see colors? YES. All he has to do is check to see if *different* people report the same colors for the same situations. He needs to show *consistency* of their identification of colors. And with that, he can know that they are detecting colors he cannot see.

So, you claim special perceptions giving evidence for your position. State that evidence and let's see if we can test *your* consistency with that of others claiming the same power. Maybe I am color blind. Convince me that there are colors by showing consistency of religious 'evidence' across different people making such claims.

I appreciate your honesty in saying you're not looking for anything, God said, "for none seek the truth, all have gone astray" This is a very serious indictment against fallen mankind, none of us seek the truth we have all gone off to pursue and fulfill our own wicked desires.

We have 3 enemies trying to destroy us at all times, 1 the Devil and His Demons, 2. our own fallen nature which seeks to fulfill the lusts of our flesh. 3. the world itself seeks to destroy us, that includes the people in it and the natural world such as spiders and snakes and every other dangerous and hostile thing in the world.

We can't afford to relax and pretend there's no war and everything will be just fine, as it's not and it won't be in the future. We can't fight these enemies on our own, this is why Jesus came into the world to fight the enemy and win and give us the prize of victory for free, all we need to do is trust Him.

It seems to me that you are living in a world of fear and conspiracy. I would suggest that this is because you have refused to even look at contrary evidence and understand what it says about your current beliefs.

To the extent there is a 'war', it is between those promoting ignorance and those promoting learning. Ignorance, as the very word says, tends to *ignore* any contrary evidence and produce a shell around the believer. Wisdom creates no shell, but encourages discussing of possibilities and investigation of evidence contrary to even cherished beliefs.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
But we don't know how the ancients managed to calculate and construct such massive structures, using materials which had to be transported vast distances.

Yes, actually, we do. Once again, we know this in part *because they told us*.

I've read many articles where many different theories were offered but none were plausible, so we still don't have any definite answers

Maybe you should read in archeology books instead of popular magazines?
 

Pilgrim Soldier

Active Member
There were no “original books.” You’re just digging yourself deeper into the “I don’t know what I’m talking about” hole.
I see you don't like my sense of humour, but your forgiven as most people don't.
I thought you would have picked up on the part where I said everyone walked around with fancy leather bound note books and modern pens and wrote down everything they saw and heard.

We both know that wasn't the case, we also know that very few actually knew how to read and write. We also know that many got others to write down what they tell them to when they wanted to record important events. sadly these people couldn't afford to hire a scribe to follow them around and write down everything they see and hear.

Now if you care to extend your mind just a bit further, you will conclude that it wasn't practical to have a scribe follow you around for 3 whole years. You would end up with a truck load of material.

so now that we have established those facts, lets move onto the "where are the scrolls now" issue. This is where we need to employ common sense. The enemies of truth attempted to destroy every last scroll, in a wicked attempt at snuffing out the truth and ruling an ignorant people.

The scrolls were all hidden but most were found and burned immediately, by the Romans and later the Muslims. But the truth was passed on to many believers who faithfully wrote it all down again and again so God's Word has been perfectly preserved to this day by His providence and will.

You won't find much truth in this world because the ruler of it is the Devil, so His children are hell bent on destroying God's Word and His people but they will fail on both counts and end up swimming in a white hot lake of lava for all eternity with no hope of annihilation.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
God never said we had to study the Bible in order to inherit eternal paradise. He just commanded us to believe in Him, and He would take care of the rest.
Billions of God's people (believers) never saw a Bible and many couldn't read either, So it has nothing to do with how well you know the Bible. It has everything to do with our relationship with God, We either stand condemned to an eternity in hell or we stand justified and righteous.
The worst thing we can do is make God our enemy, since He has full ownership of every speck of dust in the universe and He will judge every single person in history.
You’re the one placing an emphasis on the Bible as some sort of factual evidence for God. Are you recanting that position now?
 

Pilgrim Soldier

Active Member
That's not going to happen, it is a fantasy. Jesus is not coming "back" to kill all of His enemies and take over as the the ruler of the world, because Jesus is not coming "back" to the world. EVER.

Why do Christians keep saying that Jesus is coming back when Jesus said He was never coming back? There is no reason for Jesus to come back because Jesus finished the work God gave Him to do. Jesus is not coming back just because Christians want Him to come back, it does not work that way.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
Jesus made it clear as crystal that he is coming back to take back the world and universe from the powers of darkness.
He promised that it would be a battle where 3/4 of the worlds population will be killed, that's around 5 billion men women and children dying a horrific death, then been resurrected to face the final judgement.
My choice is to believe what, Jesus clearly promised or your private interpretation, which is in my opinion twisted beyond belief
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
I see you don't like my sense of humour
I don’t find much humor in misrepresenting belief as empirical fact.

so now that we have established those facts
We haven’t established any facts. The facts are that Jesus lived in an oral culture; nothing outside of official government business was permanently written. At least the Synoptics began as oral stories, told by one person to his intended audience. Matthew was told to diaspora Jews living outside Palestine. Luke was told by a gentile to a gentile community. Both of them used an earlier source, not extant.

lets move onto the "where are the scrolls now" issue.
There were no “scrolls.” The only permanent writing was government documentation. When most writing was done, it was on soft clay tablets with a stylus. The clay tablets could be erased and used again. Any “original” documents of the Gospels would have been written in the beginning on such tablets. Their disappearance has nothing to do with Satan.

This is why Biblical scholarship is important to understanding what’s in it and how it came about. Too many obtuse stories by clowns who know little to nothing about it, peddling their “knowledge” as fact.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Jesus made it clear as crystal that he is coming back to take back the world and universe from the powers of darkness.
He promised that it would be a battle where 3/4 of the worlds population will be killed, that's around 5 billion men women and children dying a horrific death, then been resurrected to face the final judgement.
My choice is to believe what, Jesus clearly promised or your private interpretation, which is in my opinion twisted beyond belief
Where did Jesus say that?
 

Pilgrim Soldier

Active Member
Why would that be an issue? We know of *many* things that are not visible to the naked eye: infrared light, ultraviolet light, radioactivity, ultrasound, atoms, radio, etc. NONE of those are visible to the naked eye, but we know all of those exist.

But, we have *evidence* for all of these. For example, a radio gives evidence of radio waves. A geiger counter gives evidence of radioactivity.



Nobody dismisses things simply because they are not visible. But, for example, the wind is simply air in motion. We can measure how fast it is moving, we can measure how it interacts chemically. We can liquefy air, separating it out into its components. We can solidify air. We can weigh it.

It isn't just our inability to *see* it that is at issue. There are many other methods of detection that can be used.

So, give a method of detection for your claims and the evidence from those methods. Then we can evaluate whether they are reliable.



And how is this possible if the evidence is available to everyone? And if it *isn't* available to everyone, in what sense is it reliable evidence?

You can claim you have 'special abilities' to pick up this extra evidence. OK, we can *still* determine the reliability of that evidence.

As an example, the chemist Dalton (who formulated the modern version of atomic theory) noticed that other people who he trusted talked about colors he, himself, did not see. It turns out that Dalton was color blind.

But, is it possible for a color blind person to know that other people *can* see colors? YES. All he has to do is check to see if *different* people report the same colors for the same situations. He needs to show *consistency* of their identification of colors. And with that, he can know that they are detecting colors he cannot see.

So, you claim special perceptions giving evidence for your position. State that evidence and let's see if we can test *your* consistency with that of others claiming the same power. Maybe I am color blind. Convince me that there are colors by showing consistency of religious 'evidence' across different people making such claims.



It seems to me that you are living in a world of fear and conspiracy. I would suggest that this is because you have refused to even look at contrary evidence and understand what it says about your current beliefs.

To the extent there is a 'war', it is between those promoting ignorance and those promoting learning. Ignorance, as the very word says, tends to *ignore* any contrary evidence and produce a shell around the believer. Wisdom creates no shell, but encourages discussing of possibilities and investigation of evidence contrary to even cherished beliefs.
People who seek to test things need to do so before they can arrive at a conclusion which they feel conformable with. But his doesn't apply to those who have already found the truth, they don't need to seek any longer as they already posses it.
You only have to look at contrary evidence if you're not sure about what you believe or if you think that there's something better to discover. Again, when you discover the secrets of the universe you don't need to go oin a witch hunt for some phantom theory.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
I do apologise if I came across as making false claims, but the evidence I have is not visible to the naked eye so there's an issue right there.
Now I can see you saying "there now, he has no evidence". but just before you climb back on your high horse consider the fact that the wind is invisible but it rips people apart like rag dolls in a hurricane.
So don't be so hasty to dismiss invisible things as insignificant fantasies.

God said, "an evil and wicked generation seeks after a sign but no sign will be given to them". This means that God deliberately hides the truth from unbelievers. God said, it gives him pleasure to reveal the truth to simple and humble people and hide it from the proud intelligent people.

I appreciate your honesty in saying you're not looking for anything, God said, "for none seek the truth, all have gone astray" This is a very serious indictment against fallen mankind, none of us seek the truth we have all gone off to pursue and fulfill our own wicked desires.

We have 3 enemies trying to destroy us at all times, 1 the Devil and His Demons, 2. our own fallen nature which seeks to fulfill the lusts of our flesh. 3. the world itself seeks to destroy us, that includes the people in it and the natural world such as spiders and snakes and every other dangerous and hostile thing in the world.

We can't afford to relax and pretend there's no war and everything will be just fine, as it's not and it won't be in the future. We can't fight these enemies on our own, this is why Jesus came into the world to fight the enemy and win and give us the prize of victory for free, all we need to do is trust Him.

Will you please stop with the preaching and the making of excuses with your a priori pre-emptive accusations and just share this evidence?


For crying out loud............................................................................
 

Pilgrim Soldier

Active Member
Yes, actually, we do. Once again, we know this in part *because they told us*.



Maybe you should read in archeology books instead of popular magazines?
I did study archaeology for just over a year, but I left because critical thinking and analysis was banned. We were taught to remain within the circular reasoning boundaries, and I foolishly dared to challenge the Zeitgeist. That instantly earned me the title of "Persona non grate" and there's no coming back from there.
 

Pilgrim Soldier

Active Member
You’re the one placing an emphasis on the Bible as some sort of factual evidence for God. Are you recanting that position now?
Every believer devotes their life to studying the Bible. It is our main priority in life, because we believe every word is from God from cover to cover so it is absolutely authoritative and instructive and non negotiable.

We are not saved by studying the Bible, we study it because we are saved. We naturally want to learn as much as possible about our Lord and saviour, because we love Him infinitely more than our family and friends and our lives.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
People who seek to test things need to do so before they can arrive at a conclusion which they feel conformable with. But his doesn't apply to those who have already found the truth, they don't need to seek any longer as they already posses it.
You only have to look at contrary evidence if you're not sure about what you believe or if you think that there's something better to discover. Again, when you discover the secrets of the universe you don't need to go oin a witch hunt for some phantom theory.
You just proved his point.
 

Pilgrim Soldier

Active Member
I don’t find much humor in misrepresenting belief as empirical fact.


We haven’t established any facts. The facts are that Jesus lived in an oral culture; nothing outside of official government business was permanently written. At least the Synoptics began as oral stories, told by one person to his intended audience. Matthew was told to diaspora Jews living outside Palestine. Luke was told by a gentile to a gentile community. Both of them used an earlier source, not extant.


There were no “scrolls.” The only permanent writing was government documentation. When most writing was done, it was on soft clay tablets with a stylus. The clay tablets could be erased and used again. Any “original” documents of the Gospels would have been written in the beginning on such tablets. Their disappearance has nothing to do with Satan.

This is why Biblical scholarship is important to understanding what’s in it and how it came about. Too many obtuse stories by clowns who know little to nothing about it, peddling their “knowledge” as fact.
The fact is, everything you and I know was told to us by someone else. Nobody has ever learned anything for themselves, only a blatant liar will claim they learned something on their own without someone programming them.

Now that we have established that fact, lets move on to the most important aspect of our indoctrination, that being the motive of the one doing the indoctrinating or programming or feeding or however you like to put it but it all comes down to you being spoon feed information, since it's not possible to discover anything new for yourself.

So every single person is at the mercy of their teacher, if you get a wicked teacher who wants to destroy you he will fill you full of lies and deception. So your spiritual/mental health is utterly dependant on your Charlatan Priest or Witch Doctor or University Professor who ever else you put your trust in. I put my trust in the truth and His Name is the Lord Jesus Christ
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
God said, "an evil and wicked generation seeks after a sign but no sign will be given to them". This means that God deliberately hides the truth from unbelievers
“Unbelievers” aren’t necessarily “evil and wicked.” The unbelieving Samaritan was “good.” Your interpretation is atrocious.

God said, it gives him pleasure to reveal the truth to simple and humble people and hide it from the proud intelligent people
God didn’t say that, Jesus is quoted as saying that — and Jesus didn’t say that; it’s an interpolation.
The worst thing we can do is make God our enemy,
1) We can’t “make” God be anything. Least of all an enemy.

I did study archaeology for just over a year, but I left because critical thinking and analysis was banned. We were taught to remain within the circular reasoning boundaries, and I foolishly dared to challenge the Zeitgeist
Hmm... I know three archaeology professors. None of them employ circular reasoning.

Every believer devotes their life to studying the Bible. It is our main priority in life, because we believe every word is from God from cover to cover so it is absolutely authoritative and instructive and non negotiable
Not all believers idolize the texts in such a fashion. The Bible doesn’t need fandom, it requires critics.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
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