Truth: either God exists or He don't.

[Polymath257]

Heresy! You will never be Touched By HIs Noodly Appendages with that attitude.

Seriously I do have a love affair with the tomato. And I have known others that like you cannot stand them. Their bodies are still missing

But I do not follow the Flying Spaghetti Monster! I follow the Invisible Pink Unicorn, PBUH.

 

[Inquire of God]

I try to make a distinction between matters of opinion and matters of fact. Reality is a question of fact, not of opinion.

For example, I think that tomatoes are nasty little fruits. That is my opinion. That is NOT reality.

But I also allow that you might find tomatoes delightful and refreshing. many people do. That is why my view is an *opinion* and not a fact. It matters to me when I go out with people who want to eat bruschetta, but it is NOT reality.

On the other side, we can ALL see the sun. We know it is there. it is not simply my opinion that it is there: it is a fact.

More complicated: I know electrons exist. I know this because of a host of experiments and observations that have been done and can be repeated to give the same results. We have technology based on them existing and we can measure their properties in a number of ways.Their existence is a fact.

On the other hand, I *believe* it is very likely that life exists in other places in the universe. I do NOT know this, but it is something that, given what I have learned, seems likely. I have an *opinion* about this. It is NOT knowledge.

You had some experiences that you attribute to a deity. I am not going to deny those experiences. I *am* going to question the validity of your interpretation of those experiences. You say you *know* they are from God. But *how* do you know they are from God? I claim there is no way to know that. In fact, given that they are not public and repeatable, the interpretation is NOT fact, it is *opinion*. It is like my dislike of tomatoes: important for the person with the opinion, but NOT an aspect of reality.

At least, that's how I see it.

PS: I have also done my investigations, including the *one* method claimed in the Bible to be a sure-fire way to find God. I found nothing except me talking to myself.

I understand what you are saying.
Certainly I can make any claim I want, even if I cannot prove it to you.
To me this is a beautiful thing, since it requires others to find out for themselves.
You say you tried and got nothing, I say you did not try long enough nor sincerely enough BASED on what I experienced. This is not an insult NOR a judgment, I do not disbelieve how hard you tried. I recommend you try again, that you try harder and that you be completely-nothing-held-back sincere. Tell God you want to know, be so sincere that He can feel it. Imagine Him listening to you a little person on one of His MANY planets, that is what WE are.
He will respond through your doubts, He has time for you, He has time for all of us.
But be patient, it may take some time, it took me quite a while, it was one of the roughest things that I have ever accomplished.
I hope you will not give up and think that it is futile to try again, I have so much joy in my life I can't really express it to you, you are so precious to God it is mind blowing, when He answers your sincere request you WILL find that it was worth the exquisite effort.

 

[Polymath257]

Jesus said, "they do not receive the truth, because there is no truth in them. They are the children of the Devil, He was a liar from the beginning".
So according to Jesus, anyone who doesn't believe in Him is a child of the Devil, so they are unable to receive the truth because they were born blind to the truth. The Devil blinds His children to the truth so they can not receive it.

Jesus said, those who don't have the truth are actually prisoners of the Devil, He keeps them in darkness and deception and only Jesus can liberate them and illuminate them with the truth. None of them can ever escape that bondage, unless He rescues them from it.

And this is how EVERY cult argues: those who don't believe simply cannot see the truth of the cult.

In this, you are denigrating Christianity into a cult based on blind faith and unreasoning devotion.

If you can't see the danger of that, I assure you many people do.

 

[Polymath257]

I understand what you are saying.
Certainly I can make any claim I want, even if I cannot prove it to you.
To me this is a beautiful thing, since it requires others to find out for themselves.
You say you tried and got nothing, I say you did not try long enough nor sincerely enough BASED on what I experienced. This is not an insult NOR a judgment, I do not disbelieve how hard you tried. I recommend you try again, that you try harder and that you be completely-nothing-held-back sincere. Tell God you want to know, be so sincere that He can feel it. Imagine Him listening to you a little person on one of His MANY planets, that is what WE are.
He will respond through your doubts, He has time for you, He has time for all of us.
But be patient, it may take some time, it took me quite a while, it was one of the roughest things that I have ever accomplished.
I hope you will not give up and think that it is futile to try again, I have so much joy in my life I can't really express it to you, you are so precious to God it is mind blowing, when He answers your sincere request you WILL find that it was worth the exquisite effort.

One problem is, of course, that continual attempts to produce a nebulous result will eventually produce a result seen as agreement: it is self-programming. In essence, self-hypnosis. And *that* is promoting self-delusion, from what I can see.

I gave it an honest and sincere chance. The evidence didn't go the way you expected. That, to me, is sufficient to show your viewpoint is wrong.

 

[ElishaElijah]

And that only matters *if* you can prove the existence of that creator *first*.

Evidence before belief.

“The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭1:18-21‬ ‭

 

[Inquire of God]

One problem is, of course, that continual attempts to produce a nebulous result will eventually produce a result seen as agreement: it is self-programming. In essence, self-hypnosis. And *that* is promoting self-delusion, from what I can see.

I gave it an honest and sincere chance. The evidence didn't go the way you expected. That, to me, is sufficient to show your viewpoint is wrong.

Then that is where you are at, and this is where I am at.

 

[Polymath257]

“The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭1:18-21‬ ‭

Yawn. Yes, yet another reason to see that the Bible is unreliable. It simply states things as fact that are false: not everyone knows in their heart that there is a God. Some people have managed to avoid the brain-washing that entails.

 

[Pilgrim Soldier]

Of course. That's why only one individual isn't enough: the results have to be repeatable and public.

Have you considered that *your* experiences could be an illusion?

Once you know the truth, there is no more considering anything. You one test and consider things while your looking for the truth, but once you find it there no need to keep looking for it.

 

[Subduction Zone]

“The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭1:18-21‬ ‭

There is a huge problem with this verse. The existence of God obviously is not plain to people. In fact it is not even plain to believers since they cannot rationally justify their beliefs. You in effect just posted a major error in the Bible.

In fact there were Christians that believed the verses that say that not only is the evidence for God clear, but that the evidence for Jesus was too. They honestly expected to find Christianity appearing in tribes that never had any contact with Christians and they were surprised a bit when they could not find this. The Bible implied that they should, why has no one come to Jesus without the Bible and missionaries at least?

 

[Polymath257]

Then that is where you are at, and this is where I am at.

Each with our *opinions*.

I admit I *could* be wrong and that an intelligence created the universe. It *could* be the case that a race of multi-dimensional beings know how to create universes and ours was a high school art project that is now forgotten.

But I don't see that as a reasonable position to take without evidence.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Once you know the truth, there is no more considering anything. You one test and consider things while your looking for the truth, but once you find it there no need to keep looking for it.

Cultic behavior that many religions have.

Why do you denigrate your own religious beliefs?

 

[Polymath257]

Once you know the truth, there is no more considering anything. You one test and consider things while your looking for the truth, but once you find it there no need to keep looking for it.

Again, the mindset of a cult: once you accept its ways, you don't need to consider anything else.

 

[Pilgrim Soldier]

The results changed when the votes came in from mail-in votes. In many places, in-person votes were counted first and those weighed Republican.

It's just amazing how Trump was leading, then suddenly every mail in vote was for Democrat. Logic tells you that this is not possible.

 

[Inquire of God]

Each with our *opinions*.

I admit I *could* be wrong and that an intelligence created the universe. It *could* be the case that a race of multi-dimensional beings know how to create universes and ours was a high school art project that is now forgotten.

But I don't see that as a reasonable position to take without evidence.

If you are not done wondering about it you could try again...
Just saying and mean it with a lot of love.

 

[Polymath257]

It's just amazing how Trump was leading, then suddenly every mail in vote was for Democrat. Logic tells you that this is not possible.

Not every vote. But the majority of mail-in votes, yes. That was partly because Trump discouraged his followers from voting by mail.

 

[Pilgrim Soldier]

Exactly. And ignoring the evidence isn't the way to discover the truth.

Evidence is great if it's not fabricated by someone with an agenda to push

 

[Pilgrim Soldier]

Actually, we have a very good idea of their level of technology, for the most part. They had certainly made some interesting observations, but certainly didn't understand the world nearly as well as we do now.

And, yes, the truth is the first casualty. That is why Trump relied so much on lies and 'alternative facts'. He lies as a matter of habit. And his followers follow those lies.

Well us Republicans believe the democrats are liars and cheats, I guess it comes down to what the individual decides to believe and that depends on how well their party of choice sells their mandate.

 

[Polymath257]

If you are not done wondering about it you could try again...
Just saying and mean it with a lot of love.

I have no remaining doubts about my viewpoint. If anything, I find it more and more amazing that adults can still believe in such myths.

Once I had childish notions and believed childish things. Then I grew up and discarded those childish ideas.

No disrespect, but I find most religious beliefs to be childlike. It's like believing in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny, only for adults. But once I woke up and realized how much control those myths have on a person's life (to its detriment), there is a remarkable sense of relief in giving them up.

 

[Polymath257]

Evidence is great if it's not fabricated by someone with an agenda to push

Exactly. Which is why I doubt anyone who puts their faith prior to honesty. Or a politician trying to get votes through promoting fear.

 

[Inquire of God]

I have no remaining doubts about my viewpoint. If anything, I find it more and more amazing that adults can still believe in such myths.

Once I had childish notions and believed childish things. Then I grew up and discarded those childish ideas.

No disrespect, but I find most religious beliefs to be childlike. It's like believing in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny, only for adults. But once I woke up and realized how much control those myths have on a person's life (to its detriment), there is a remarkable sense of relief in giving them up.

You are right, it does take the mind of a child to believe.
I do not take that as an insult, even if it is meant as one.
I hope it was not meant as an insult, but if it is, that's okay.