Try to prove to me your religion.

[Taylor Seraphim]

I have to disagree with that. Animals have no way to contemplate their future, which includes their own death. They have fight or flight instincts but do not cognitively plan for the future. Squirrels do not know why they collect acorns for the winter.

Animals satisfy hunger, thirst and sexual instincts driven by the workings of their body, not their minds.
The common fears among mankind are mainly fear of death, fear of losing a loved one, becoming incapacitated, making a living, finding a compatible mate, finding a house that will be affordable. Having adequate transport.....these are not things animals even think about....instinct drives them to feed and procreate....there is little else on their minds.

Incorrect as some primates have displayed emotions, if you would like evidence I can provide it.

No, it isn't like that at all. Religion to me is not a crutch like a drug to get me through the day. My faith is part of who I am and have always been. I am a spiritual being and spirituality to me is like a muscle in my body....if you don't exercise it, it withers and loses strength until it becomes useless. My spiritual muscle became weak at one point in my life....I felt dead inside. Not until I began to use that muscle again did I feel like a whole person.

No it was not always, as a newborn you did not have a concept of faith.

So you could not find a way to better yourself with ethics or goals so you assume you cannot survive without religion?

I totally agree. But just because some religions are promoting wickedness, doesn't mean that all religion is wrong. There was no religion in the garden of Eden. Humans created religion.
God made us to be like him...spiritual and with moral qualities. Animals are not created like us. We are unique...made in the image of our Creator so we have the capacity for good in us...

Actually your religion is one of the top two that can and have promoted wickedness.

No we where not created, can you provide evidence that we where?

if only we would obey him instead of relying on ourselves to make decisions

That mindset caused someone to fly into a building.

If he is omnipotent than not only would he know how to save everyone, he could pull it of, and he chooses not to... if he does exist.

If human beings implemented just one rule from the Bible, the world would be a very different place...."do to others what you would have others do to you"...Imagine?

That idea is not unique to Christianity and existed secularly before hand for one thing.

On the other what about if we used this verse?

Leviticus 24:16- And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, [and] all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name [of the LORD], shall be put to death.

 

[Deeje]

If you are talking about the god of the bible than we should all be narcissistic ego maniacs who resort to violence and threats of torture if people don't do what we want them to. Personally, I think most of humanity is better than the god depicted in the bible.

Then all I can say is you do not know the God of the Bible at all. That is your loss. He is nothing like you describe....but if that is what you want to think of him, you are free to do so.

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

Then all I can say is you do not know the God of the Bible at all. That is your loss. He is nothing like you describe....but if that is what you want to think of him, you are free to do so.

If I provided scripture that shoed otherwise would you change your mind?

 

[Yoshua]

An event is historically credible when several reputable first hand sources record it.

How about the places and the setting (biblical) that still existing right now, and secular witnesses or historians? I don't think they are totally not the first hand but we actually can see the place.

Seeing as if "God" exists he refuses to give skeptics clear evidence then he does not want his word to propagate.

How did you know his mind of refusing to propagate his word?

Thanks

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

How about the places and the setting (biblical) that still existing right now, and secular witnesses or historians? I don't think they are totally not the first hand but we actually can see the place.

A fictional story being held in a real places does not make it true.

Please quote some secular witnesses or historians that say these miracles took place.

How did you know his mind of refusing to propagate his word?

I just said why.

If he wanted his word to propagate he would offer clear evidence and he has not.

 

[Yoshua]

so you are quoting that "god" bestowing luck upon believers is evidence then say it is on spiritually (which would be difficult or impossible to measure).

Yes, it seems impossible because it is God who manifested his power to His believers.

So I ask you: Is morality reliant upon spirituality.

Absolutely yes. God is moral. Spiritual is always connected with moral.

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

How can you possible demonstrate that any of that is true?

Hi Milton,

Studying the Bible, check the history, the setting and the witnesses.

Thanks

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

Absolutely yes. God is moral. Spiritual is always connected with moral.

Therfore you are saying that people who are not spiritual are not moral.

 

[Yoshua]

A fictional story being held in a real places does not make it true.

Please quote some secular witnesses or historians that say these miracles took place.

The best person that I can quote is Josephus, a secular historian who witnessed a man named Jesus during their time.

CHAPTER 3.

SEDITION OF THE JEWS AGAINST PONTIUS PILATE. CONCERNING CHRIST, AND WHAT BEFELL PAULINA AND THE JEWS AT ROME,

3. Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, (9) those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; (10) as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.Antiquities XVIII.3.3 from early Jewish writings

If he wanted his word to propagate he would offer clear evidence and he has not.

Oh. As I said , historical evidence is one of the evidence. Some discovered lately old biblical text of Isaiah. This is a very broad discussion if we will tackle it one by one about those evidences.

Thanks

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

The best person that I can quote is Josephus, a secular historian who witnessed a man named Jesus during their time.

CHAPTER 3.

SEDITION OF THE JEWS AGAINST PONTIUS PILATE. CONCERNING CHRIST, AND WHAT BEFELL PAULINA AND THE JEWS AT ROME,

3. Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, (9) those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; (10) as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.Antiquities XVIII.3.3 from early Jewish writings

Oh. As I said , historical evidence is one of the evidence. Some discovered lately old biblical text of Isaiah. This is a very broad discussion if we will tackle it one by one about those evidences.

Thanks

Josephus was a Christian XD

 

[Yoshua]

Therfore you are saying that people who are not spiritual are not moral.

No. That is not what I mean. Man is composed of a tripartite being. Body, soul and spirit. We have a spirit therefore we are spiritual being. We can't see things that are spiritual in nature like the spirit beings (angels) because we are created with a flesh (body). God existence means there is morality. He is a holy God.

Thanks

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

No. That is not what I mean. Man is composed of a tripartite being. Body, soul and spirit. We have a spirit therefore we are spiritual being. We can't see things that are spiritual in nature like the spirit beings (angels) because we are created with a flesh (body). God existence means there is morality. He is a holy God.

Thanks

Any proof of a soul or spirit?

 

[Yoshua]

Josephus was a Christian XD

He is a Jewish historian.

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

Any proof of a soul or spirit?

When we commune and pray to God, we can say that we have a spirit and soul. Soul is our own self, the spirit and soul are the one which separates from the body (flesh) when a person dies. Spirit and soul were also mentioned in the Bible.

Thanks

 

[Deeje]

Incorrect as some primates have displayed emotions, if you would like evidence I can provide it.

We are not talking about odd exceptions to the rule...we are speaking about animals in general. Primates and elephants and perhaps a few other species exhibit some human-like traits, but by far the majority of species do not. Dogs can display affection, but they do not plan their future any more than primates or elephants do. Animals do not comprehend the concept of past, present or future. Animals live in the "now".
Humans are unique.

No it was not always, as a newborn you did not have a concept of faith.

So you could not find a way to better yourself with ethics or goals so you assume you cannot survive without religion?

I disagree. Children are the most spiritual beings on this planet. But again if that spiritual muscle is not exercised, it doesn't really develop or gain strength. Though some exposure to belief in God as a child will often draw people to God later in life, once they discover that a purely materialistic life is really empty and meaningless.

Actually your religion is one of the top two that can and have promoted wickedness.

Sorry but if everyone belonged to "my religion", there would be no wars, no poverty, no murder, theft or wickedness of any sort. Like I said, just because bad religions exist, doesn't mean that they are all bad.
Its so easy to tar everyone with the one brush...have you ever bothered to find out?

No we where not created, can you provide evidence that we where?

Look around you. Evidence for a Creator is everywhere....but not to those who don't want to see it. They are blinded by their own skepticism.
What is the saying...? "None so blind..."? God does not owe us anything...not even an explanation as to why we should believe in him. He lets that be our choice from our own heart. God knows those who belong to him.

That mindset caused someone to fly into a building.

Listening to men with twisted ideals caused that event. Humans decided to listen and act on what someone else told them.... something that anyone with a God oriented conscience would NEVER do.

Any religion that teaches that it is OK to kill innocent people is the wrong religion.

If he is omnipotent than not only would he know how to save everyone, he could pull it of, and he chooses not to... if he does exist.

Either that, or God is doing something with a bigger picture in mind....one you will never see with an attitude like you display. You are so bust being angry at what God is NOT doing, that you have never really stopped to ask what he IS doing, or bothered to listen to his reasons.He is not going to force you to listen or to open your eyes.

That idea is not unique to Christianity and existed secularly before hand for one thing.

It was something Jesus taught (Matt 7:12) among other things.

On the other what about if we used this verse?

Leviticus 24:16- And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, [and] all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name [of the LORD], shall be put to death.

From a more modern translation v 13-16...."Then Jehovah said to Moses: 14 “Bring the one who cursed to the outside of the camp, and all those who heard him must lay their hands on his head, and then the entire assembly must stone him. 15 And you should tell the Israelites, ‘If any man curses his God, he will answer for his sin. 16 So the abuser of Jehovah’s name should be put to death without fail. The entire assembly should stone him without fail. The foreign resident should be put to death the same as the native for his abusing the Name."

If God's people were under obligation to serve their God and they had laws governing their behavior, just as in any other nation, if you break the law, there are penalties.
If you know the penalty before you commit the crime, then how can you complain when it is implemented?

What do you see in those verses? You see someone cursing God, abusing his name which is against the law, and there are witnesses. These witnesses identify the accused and then are authorized to carry out the death penalty. You must remember the times and the customs of the people. Israel has no jails. Those who committed capital offenses were given the death penalty.
That was the law back then...is it the law now? What are you on about?

 

[Deeje]

If I provided scripture that shoed otherwise would you change your mind?

Shoot.

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

We are not talking about odd exceptions to the rule...we are speaking about animals in general. Primates and elephants and perhaps a few other species exhibit some human-like traits, but by far the majority of species do not. Dogs can display affection, but they do not plan their future any more than primates or elephants do. Animals do not comprehend the concept of past, present or future. Animals live in the "now".
Humans are unique.

No your argument hinges upon humans being unique in that facet and we are not so that argument is null and void.

I disagree. Children are the most spiritual beings on this planet. But again if that spiritual muscle is not exercised, it doesn't really develop or gain strength. Though some exposure to belief in God as a child will often draw people to God later in life, once they discover that a purely materialistic life is really empty and meaningless.

Incorrect, children raised in neutral environments are usually non-religious.

Also many of the most enterprising and meaningful people in history where nonreligious.

Additionally being an atheist does not automatically make you a materialist.

Sorry but if everyone belonged to "my religion", there would be no wars, no poverty, no murder, theft or wickedness of any sort. Like I said, just because bad religions exist, doesn't mean that they are all bad.
Its so easy to tar everyone with the one brush...have you ever bothered to find out?

The bible contradicts those statements.

Leviticus 24:16 - And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, [and] all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name [of the LORD], shall be put to death.

Leviticus 20:13 - If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood [shall be] upon them.

Genesis 38:7 - But Er, Judah's firstborn, was evil in the sight of the LORD, so the LORD took his life.

Deuteronomy 21:18-21 - "If any man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey his father or his mother, and when they chastise him, he will not even listen to them, then his father and mother shall seize him, and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gateway of his hometown. "They shall say to the elders of his city, 'This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey us, he is a glutton and a drunkard.'
"Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death; so you shall remove the evil from your midst, and all Israel will hear of it and fear.

Look around you. Evidence for a Creator is everywhere....but not to those who don't want to see it. They are blinded by their own skepticism.
What is the saying...? "None so blind..."? God does not owe us anything...not even an explanation as to why we should believe in him. He lets that be our choice from our own heart. God knows those who belong to him.

Where? You say there is evidence yet refuse to show any.

Skepticism is wanting to know things faith is saying something is right because you want it to be.

So you are saying that it is okay for a deity to punish us for not believing in it's existence and then not provide evidence for it's existence? That deity would be evil.

Listening to men with twisted ideals caused that event. Humans decided to listen and act on what someone else told them.... something that anyone with a God oriented conscience would NEVER do.

Any religion that teaches that it is OK to kill innocent people is the wrong religion.

YOUR religion says it is okay to kill


Leviticus 24:16 - And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, [and] all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name [of the LORD], shall be put to death.

Leviticus 20:13 - If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood [shall be] upon them.

Genesis 38:7 - But Er, Judah's firstborn, was evil in the sight of the LORD, so the LORD took his life.

Deuteronomy 21:18-21 - "If any man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey his father or his mother, and when they chastise him, he will not even listen to them, then his father and mother shall seize him, and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gateway of his hometown. "They shall say to the elders of his city, 'This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey us, he is a glutton and a drunkard.'
"Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death; so you shall remove the evil from your midst, and all Israel will hear of it and fear.

It was something Jesus taught (Matt 7:12) among other things.

That idea already existed beforehand.

Either that, or God is doing something with a bigger picture in mind....one you will never see with an attitude like you display. You are so bust being angry at what God is NOT doing, that you have never really stopped to ask what he IS doing, or bothered to listen to his reasons.He is not going to force you to listen or to open your eyes.

So you are saying you don't know.

Angry? At God? How can I be angry at something that doesn't exist?

I think your projecting because you seem to be getting angry right there.

From a more modern translation v 13-16...."Then Jehovah said to Moses: 14 “Bring the one who cursed to the outside of the camp, and all those who heard him must lay their hands on his head, and then the entire assembly must stone him. 15 And you should tell the Israelites, ‘If any man curses his God, he will answer for his sin. 16 So the abuser of Jehovah’s name should be put to death without fail. The entire assembly should stone him without fail. The foreign resident should be put to death the same as the native for his abusing the Name."

If God's people were under obligation to serve their God and they had laws governing their behavior, just as in any other nation, if you break the law, there are penalties.
If you know the penalty before you commit the crime, then how can you complain when it is implemented?

What do you see in those verses? You see someone cursing God, abusing his name which is against the law, and there are witnesses. These witnesses identify the accused and then are authorized to carry out the death penalty. You must remember the times and the customs of the people. Israel has no jails. Those who committed capital offenses were given the death penalty.
That was the law back then...is it the law now? What are you on about?

This was a law that "God" supposabley made. Meaning that he wants people to be stoned to death if this is true and condones murder.

 

[Deeje]

The bible contradicts those statements.

Leviticus 24:16 - And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, [and] all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name [of the LORD], shall be put to death.

Leviticus 20:13 - If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood [shall be] upon them.

Genesis 38:7 - But Er, Judah's firstborn, was evil in the sight of the LORD, so the LORD took his life.

Deuteronomy 21:18-21 - "If any man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey his father or his mother, and when they chastise him, he will not even listen to them, then his father and mother shall seize him, and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gateway of his hometown. "They shall say to the elders of his city, 'This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey us, he is a glutton and a drunkard.'
"Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death; so you shall remove the evil from your midst, and all Israel will hear of it and fear.

These are all from the Hebrew scriptures, not from the teachings of Jesus Christ.

Skepticism is wanting to know things faith is saying something is right because you want it to be.

And blindness is not being able to see past the end of your nose.

So you are saying that it is okay for a deity to punish us for not believing in it's existence and then not provide evidence for it's existence? That deity would be evil.

There is plenty of evidence but you can't or won't acknowledge it. That is not God's fault.

YOUR religion says it is okay to kill

No it doesn't. You don't know much about JW's do you? We don't serve in the armed forces, we don't vote for political governments and we will not carry a weapon.
We don't think its ever OK to kill.

Leviticus 24:16

- And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, [and] all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name [of the LORD], shall be put to death.

Leviticus 20:13 - If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood [shall be] upon them.

Genesis 38:7 - But Er, Judah's firstborn, was evil in the sight of the LORD, so the LORD took his life.

Deuteronomy 21:18-21 - "If any man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey his father or his mother, and when they chastise him, he will not even listen to them, then his father and mother shall seize him, and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gateway of his hometown. "They shall say to the elders of his city, 'This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey us, he is a glutton and a drunkard.'
"Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death; so you shall remove the evil from your midst, and all Israel will hear of it and fear.

Again you go back to the time of the ancient Jews...Christians are under a different arrangement. There is no authorization for us to be putting anyone to death as a Christian teaching.

When the final judgment comes, then God will eliminate all who oppose him and his incoming kingdom. He has given all mankind everywhere ample opportunity to make decisions about his existence and whether or not he is worthy of our worship. As the Creator who gave us life, he has the right to terminate our existence if we break his laws or throw the gift back in his face......But since you don't believe he exists...you have nothing to worry about, do you?

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

These are all from the Hebrew scriptures, not from the teachings of Jesus Christ.

According to the doctrine of the trinity they are one and the same.

And blindness is not being able to see past the end of your nose.

A witty saying proves nothing. - Voltaire

No it doesn't. You don't know much about JW's do you? We don't serve in the armed forces, we don't vote for political governments and we will not carry a weapon.
We don't think its ever OK to kill.

Your god disagrees.

There is plenty of evidence but you can't or won't acknowledge it. That is not God's fault.

Please show it to me.

Again you go back to the time of the ancient Jews...Christians are under a different arrangement. There is no authorization for us to be putting anyone to death as a Christian teaching.

You still worship a being who you believe was murderous at one point.

When the final judgment comes, then God will eliminate all who oppose him and his incoming kingdom. He has given all mankind everywhere ample opportunity to make decisions about his existence and whether or not he is worthy of our worship. As the Creator who gave us life, he has the right to terminate our existence if we break his laws or throw the gift back in his face......But since you don't believe he exists...you have nothing to worry about, do you?

I was doing this to see if you could show me some evidence I was missing and I am and I am sorely disappointed.

If in the process you happen to learn something as well that would be nice but it was not my primary motivation as I doubt you will.

 

[Deeje]

According to the doctrine of the trinity they are one and the same.

We reject the doctrine of the trinity, so no points for that one.....sorry

A witty saying proves nothing- Voltaire

Are you accusing me of being witty?

Your god disagrees.

Since you do not know my God, I find that a completely uniformed statement.

Please show it to me.

At your earliest possible convenience please proceed to the nearest National Park and proceed to drink in nature for at least a couple of hours.
When you have consumed enough of that, in the evening I suggest you take yourself to the nearest observatory and take a long look out into space at the wonders you encounter there.
The following day or some time soon after, please proceed to the nearest university and ask to observe the microscopic world and the see the perfection that exists in that world within a world, unseen to the naked eye.

Then I would like you to contemplate the difference between the last two worlds you observed and tell me how likely all these things exist in magnificent order as a result of random chance? You want a fairy story...there it is.

You still worship a being who you believe was murderous at one point.

Tell me something....if a country you know has the death penalty for smuggling drugs and you decide to try to do that and you are caught, will the person who carries out your execution be deemed a murderer? Will the one who authorized the executioner be deemed a murderer? Will the one who wrote the law be deemed a murderer? You speak absolute nonsense.

I was doing this to see if you could show me some evidence I was missing and I am and I am sorely disappointed.

If in the process you happen to learn something as well that would be nice but it was not my primary motivation as I doubt you will.

I'll need a translation for this last comment...