Try to prove to me your religion.

[JustWondering]

All life is a miracle, but mostly taken for granted by those who have the gift, compared to the billions of potential humans who never made it to birth. Consider the number of abortions carried out every year....and even consider the billions of sperm who did not fertilize the one egg they were all aiming for...each one of them a potentially different person.

Of the millions of sperm released by your father, and the one egg released by your mother that month, only one of each of these produced the unique individual that is YOU. Whether you turned out perfect or not, you have life. No life is disposable in the eyes of our Creator....but we ourselves, by the choices we make, tell our Creator if we want to continue living. If we have no time for him, he has no time for us. If we search for him with the right motive of heart, we will find him.....but having found him, we must then obey his rules for continued existence. If we break the rules, we lose the gift, never having appreciated who gave it to us in the first place.

Our formation in the womb was not the result of some chance coming together of two human cells in the process of evolution, but the amazingly designed mechanism that produces the many kinds of life on this planet....all within their "kinds" as God declared.

Science knows that all life comes from pre-existing life.....but they don't acknowledge the designer who began life in the first place. I believe that "religion" is responsible for people being turned away from God. They misrepresent him and even blame him for what is wrong. How can people accept such a God?

I went searching for the real God...the one who is missing from Christendom.

So if all life comes from pre-existing life, what made god?

 

[SpeaksForTheTrees]

Please try to prove to me your religion is true.

Is true as its got us through some terrible time in history of total war , now is huge parts of the world enjoy much freedoms due to my religion

 

[Geoff-Allen]

Interesting thread!

I don't have a specific religion to "prove" to you ...

I do practice meditation and mindfulness.

When I do remember 2 practice kindness & compassion, I enjoy peace of mind.

When I forget 2 practice things can go downhill very fast!

Give it a try - couldn't hurt!

 

[Deeje]

So if all life comes from pre-existing life, what made god?

LOL....Dumb question. About as dumb as asking where science came from.

God is the great "first cause" so no one "made" God.....he just IS.

 

[NewChapter]

Please try to prove to me your religion is true.

"The answer my friend is blowing in the wind."

 

[JustWondering]

LOL....Dumb question. About as dumb as asking where science came from.

God is the great "first cause" so no one "made" God.....he just IS.

No, it is a logical question. Your answer is DUMB. You try to defend your faith by claiming life is too complex to simply JUST exist, so life requires a creator. Then you immediately demolish your own argument by saying the creator, who must be a vastly more complicated form of life than us, JUST exists.

Secondly, do you have anything to back the claim that your god created life besides unsubstantiated claims, do you have even one good argument?

 

[Deeje]

No, it is a logical question. Your answer is DUMB. You try to defend your faith by claiming life is too complex to simply JUST exist, so life requires a creator. Then you immediately demolish your own argument by saying the creator, who must be a vastly more complicated form of life than us, JUST exists.

Secondly, do you have anything to back the claim that your god created life besides unsubstantiated claims, do you have even one good argument?

You are absolutely right. But then, you have nothing to substantiate your claim that he doesn't exist.
Mexican stand-off perhaps?

To me "logic" dictates that where there is design, there must of necessity be a designer.

What instrument or tool do you, or any other person, use in their profession that was not designed for use by someone in that profession?

Your computer for example, has many components which were each carefully designed individually to perform a task in connection with other components. They had to be assembled in just the right order, with the right connections or the complete machine would not work....one component out of place and it would not function correctly, if at all. Then you could have this magnificently designed machine that would be completely useless without a power source....another completely unrelated wonder of man's creativity....but who invented electricity? Man merely learned how to generate it and harness it.

The human brain is a magnificently designed computer, which has the potential capacity to store much more than any man made memory bank. Its computing skills have enabled man to invent a multitude of different things with many applications, but many of the ideas he used for them are sourced from nature. It's called bio-mimetics....which is copying things found in the natural world. If man needs to copy nature to invent things useful to his everyday life....why do you doubt the existence of the original inventor?

And we haven't even touched on the other intricate systems that make up human physiology. Humans must choose a field in which to specialize because our bodies and brain are so incredibly complex, that no one can know everything there is to know about how it all works.

If you came across a house in the woods with a welcome mat out front, and an unlocked front door and you found it heated and cooled with soft carpet and beautiful decor....a pantry stocked with food and a note on the table saying "help yourself"....it has lighting and plumbing and many other useful things inside....would you imagine that it just popped out of nowhere, or was the product of slow evolution over a very long time? This is planet earth. Gifted to man by a generous Creator, this planet is now being destroyed because man has greedily interfered with everything on it. Do you realize that if humans just followed the commands of this planet's Creator, we would not have wars, crime, hatred, violence, pollution, corruption or greed?

I think that my Creator is smarter than the blind forces of evolution in which you seem to worship science as a god in itself.

When did science become a religion? When human began to think that they were smarter than God.

 

[Paleo]

I'm going to be that stick in the mud and say this:
Never really seen the point in people feeling they need to prove their religion. They're called religious beliefs for a reason, because they're beliefs not facts. If you feel comfortable with your thoughts and spirituality you should feel no need to prove it.

 

[JustWondering]

You are absolutely right. But then, you have nothing to substantiate your claim that he doesn't exist.
Mexican stand-off perhaps?

To me "logic" dictates that where there is design, there must of necessity be a designer.

That's fine, but you don't stop there. Your "logic" dictates that if something is complex it is assumed it has to be designed but the designer is exempt from this rule.

 

[Deeje]

That's fine, but you don't stop there. Your "logic" dictates that if something is complex it is assumed it has to be designed but the designer is exempt from this rule.

Perhaps the designer is not exempt from the rule per se, but that his creation is simply not intelligent enough to comprehend the nature of his existence?

Can you teach quantum physics to a flea? This is what my logic dictates.....that sometimes the creation is a little less intelligent than he thinks he is. Not everything is explainable....even in science. The more you learn, the more there is to know.....maybe the originator of science is the same?

 

[JustWondering]

Perhaps the designer is not exempt from the rule per se, but that his creation is simply not intelligent enough to comprehend the nature of his existence?

Can you teach quantum physics to a flea? This is what my logic dictates.....that sometimes the creation is a little less intelligent than he thinks he is. Not everything is explainable....even in science. The more you learn, the more there is to know.....maybe the originator of science is the same?

I don't think it is impossible for a creator of some kind to exist. IMO, if some kind of creator exists it likely isn't all powerful, it is part of the natural cosmos and has limits to what it can do, it has no interest in tampering with our lives, it hasn't revealed anything to anyone.

 

[Deeje]

I don't think it is impossible for a creator of some kind to exist. IMO, if some kind of creator exists it likely isn't all powerful, it is part of the natural cosmos and has limits to what it can do, it has no interest in tampering with our lives, it hasn't revealed anything to anyone.

You could not be more wrong .....if you understood his purpose in creating the material universe and life itself, you would not be able to say that. He is certainly not powerless, has a definite interest in the human race and has revealed everything we need to know.....have you ever actually asked? Or maybe you just asked the wrong people?

I had lots of questions too that I thought no one could answer.....I have answers to all of them now....they were all in the Bible.

 

[JustWondering]

You could not be more wrong .....if you understood his purpose in creating the material universe and life itself, you would not be able to say that. He is certainly not powerless, has a definite interest in the human race and has revealed everything we need to know.....have you ever actually asked? Or maybe you just asked the wrong people?

I had lots of questions too that I thought no one could answer.....I have answers to all of them now....they were all in the Bible.

Is your belief based on emotional desires or reason? I used to be a believer once. That changed when I started examining the claims of the bible and comparing them to reality. Where is the evidence that a god that cares about us exists? I can definitely provide evidence and sound arguments for the lack of a caring god.

 

[Deeje]

Is your belief based on emotional desires or reason?

My faith is based on solid reasoning and a clear understanding of what the Bible teaches....and what it doesn't.
Emotion plays very little part in it. Christianity is about education, not just feelings.

I used to be a believer once.

If by that you mean you were once a member of Christendom's churches, let me assure you that this is not Christianity. It is so far removed from what Christ taught that there is no actual similarity.
I was there once too.

That changed when I started examining the claims of the bible and comparing them to reality.

What claims are you referring to specifically...let me understand where you are coming from. It will allow me to see if you feel like I did for the same reasons.

Where is the evidence that a god that cares about us exists?

Look around you at the unspoiled places on this planet where human greed has not infiltrated. The creation itself is magnificent. It is man's activities that spoil everything.

Then consider what the world would be like if we had no sight....no sense of smell....no hearing....no taste....no touch. Imagine if humans only ate grass instead of the infinite variety of delicious foods.
Consider the human brain as the center where all these things are processed and calculations are made constantly without us even considering them. We are living miracles who share a planet with other living miracles. The planet itself is a miracle. Its placement in the solar system, its speed of rotation, the precise tilt of its axis, the gases that make up our atmosphere...all of this is no accident. It demonstrates purpose, love and a great generosity on the part of its Maker.

Then consider human relationships and what part they play in our happiness. God extends his hand to us in friendship too, but many reject him or misrepresent him.

What if we behaved like animals and displayed no moral sense (I think some are already there in some places) What if we had no laws, no way to avoid bad people and no hope for the future? What if this is as good as it gets? Life then has no purpose and we have nothing to look forward to but extinction. Is that OK with you? I don't know of anyone who would choose this world to live in if they didn't have to. Don't we have a collective expectation that this is not the life we should be living? There is a reason.

Do you realize that if all men just followed one simple law of God, (often called "the Golden Rule") that we would not have the world we have today?

We are in the outworking of a major object lesson.....one that will have implications for all eternity to come. Humans under influence from God's adversary, thought that they could know evil and that it would benefit them. The woman was told that they would not die. God knew that a knowledge of evil would not benefit them in the slightest, but they didn't believe him. They took what did not belong to them and began to degenerate into old age, sickness and eventually death, condemning their children to the same fate. Evil is all we have ever known.

The level of evil in the world now apparently rivals the last days of the pre-flood era. Jesus said it would be this way again before God brought his rulership back to this earth. (Matt 24:36-39; 6:9,10) God's wisdom will have been proven beyond all shadow of doubt. His kingdom will restore all that Adam threw away....everlasting life in paradise conditions on earth.

God took the long term solution to benefit the maximum number of people for the rest of time. What is our short lifetime compared to eternity? The lesson is learned, Adam's children are rescued from sin and death and man will never have to suffer at the hands of rebels ever again. Its a big universe...who knows what God has planned for it?

I can definitely provide evidence and sound arguments for the lack of a caring god.

Please do and lets explore them. I am sure I can explain these things to you in a different light....it might even make sense.

 

[JustWondering]

What claims are you referring to specifically...let me understand where you are coming from. It will allow me to see if you feel like I did for the same reasons.

The main hurdle is that the bible makes no logical sense. The bible claims that god loves humanity, but who inflicts great suffering and death on their loved ones? Don't bother with arguments that equate god to a parent being stern with their child because good human parents don't kill their children for misbehaving. Secondly, any flaws in the created are not the fault of the created but of the creator. Man "sinned" and god put all the blame on man for it, even passing that blame onto future generations. That's like a engineer blaming a machine he designed and put together himself for not performing exactly how he wanted it to. Doesn't make any sense. That's the main problem, the claims of the bible are illogical and make no sense.

 

[JustWondering]

Look around you at the unspoiled places on this planet where human greed has not infiltrated. The creation itself is magnificent. It is man's activities that spoil everything.

Then consider what the world would be like if we had no sight....no sense of smell....no hearing....no taste....no touch. Imagine if humans only ate grass instead of the infinite variety of delicious foods.
Consider the human brain as the center where all these things are processed and calculations are made constantly without us even considering them. We are living miracles who share a planet with other living miracles. The planet itself is a miracle. Its placement in the solar system, its speed of rotation, the precise tilt of its axis, the gases that make up our atmosphere...all of this is no accident. It demonstrates purpose, love and a great generosity on the part of its Maker.

Then consider human relationships and what part they play in our happiness. God extends his hand to us in friendship too, but many reject him or misrepresent him.

What if we behaved like animals and displayed no moral sense (I think some are already there in some places) What if we had no laws, no way to avoid bad people and no hope for the future? What if this is as good as it gets? Life then has no purpose and we have nothing to look forward to but extinction. Is that OK with you? I don't know of anyone who would choose this world to live in if they didn't have to. Don't we have a collective expectation that this is not the life we should be living? There is a reason.

That is simply not evidence for your supernatural god. Nothing in your above argument can't be credited to another god or gods. The above claims are unsubstantiated claims backed by nothing more than your personal beliefs, which is not evidence.

 

[JustWondering]

Please do and lets explore them. I am sure I can explain these things to you in a different light....it might even make sense.

There is no evidence of ANY supernatural being/force interfering in our affairs for our greater good, EVER. That's my evidence for my position. If you care to refute that please back your arguments with some kind of evidence, please.

 

[Deeje]

The main hurdle is that the bible makes no logical sense. The bible claims that god loves humanity, but who inflicts great suffering and death on their loved ones?

I found that it made no logical sense the way Christendom presents it. If you could understand what God's first purpose was and how free will figures at the bottom of everything, you would see the wisdom of God's actions in the long term, not the short term. It is not God who inflicts suffering on anyone. It is humans who inflict suffering on other humans. God allows it for a reason....and the end justifies the means.

Don't bother with arguments that equate god to a parent being stern with their child because good human parents don't kill their children for misbehaving.

This is true. But since God is the Creator, he has the right to impart the gift of life and he also has the right to withdraw that gift if someone is refusing to comply with his laws. Continuing life was conditional from the beginning. All Adam and his wife had to do was obey one simple command....not even a difficult one, and they could have lived forever. One act of disobedience lost them so much. (Gen 3:22-24)

Even some human governments implement the death penalty for certain crimes. Are they being cruel or is it justice? Justice doesn't have feelings...it is blind because the law is the law and if you break it, there are penalties. If you know what the penalties are before you break the law, how can you complain when justice is served? God is merciful though to deserving ones...those who are truly repentant.

A parent will allow a child to undergo painful corrective surgery if the outcome will be a permanent cure for the ailment. This is what God is doing. The "operation" is a long one with complex procedures designed to make sure that the cure will be permanent, never needing another "operation" to fix it.

Secondly, any flaws in the created are not the fault of the created but of the creator. Man "sinned" and god put all the blame on man for it, even passing that blame onto future generations. That's like a engineer blaming a machine he designed and put together himself for not performing exactly how he wanted it to. Doesn't make any sense. That's the main problem, the claims of the bible are illogical and make no sense.

No, sorry, that does not wash. The defect in man was NOT there at the beginning....unless you want to imply that free will was a defect? Would you like it removed so that you had no choice in anything? Animals are programmed to do what will perpetuate their species, without much in the way of choice. Pheromones dictate what animals do reproductively and natural laws force them to eat and drink because they simply have to obey them in order to keep living. Humans are subject to natural laws too but we are not "programmed" to the extent that animals are.
We can choose our mates based on personal choice. We can choose what to eat or drink. We can make so many choices in everyday life and we have the unique capacity to imagine an outcome of our choice....and we have a God who actually gives us rules so that we will not make stupid mistakes in the first place. Every action has a consequence...some good...some life altering.

Humans at the outset, had only one rule that was negative. The law was clearly stated and the consequence clearly defined before Adam took a wrong step. It was not God's fault that an abuse of free will landed him in a predicament that he chose in full knowledge of what he was doing. The fact that his children inherited his defect was taken care of by the atonement offered by Jesus. All of this is done in universal time because the first rebel was not human. To us everything seems to be taking forever, but in God's counting of time, it is less than a week. (2 Pet 3:8) We have to be patient and wait on God for the promised outcome.....because forever is a long time to lose to impatience.

 

[Deeje]

That is simply not evidence for your supernatural god. Nothing in your above argument can't be credited to another god or gods. The above claims are unsubstantiated claims backed by nothing more than your personal beliefs, which is not evidence.

That was a lot to dismiss with a hand wave. The evidence is talking but you are not listening.

 

[Deeje]

There is no evidence of ANY supernatural being/force interfering in our affairs for our greater good, EVER. That's my evidence for my position. If you care to refute that please back your arguments with some kind of evidence, please.

I would love to refute it, but if you are not open to it why would I bother? If you really want to know I can share the evidence. It's all around you but your eyes and your heart are closed.
It will just bounce off. He cannot come into your life if you shut out all possibility for his existence.