Try to prove to me your religion.

[JustWondering]

I found that it made no logical sense the way Christendom presents it. If you could understand what God's first purpose was and how free will figures at the bottom of everything, you would see the wisdom of God's actions in the long term, not the short term. It is not God who inflicts suffering on anyone. It is humans who inflict suffering on other humans. God allows it for a reason....and the end justifies the means.

Humans do not inflict natural disasters on themselves. Humans did not invent disease. Also, free will is never mentioned in the bible, in fact god hardened pharoh's heart so he would not release the slaves (he straight up mind controlled pharoh to be a jerk). The bible emphasizes obedience basically above all else. So I don't buy your free will argument, that's nonsense.

 

[JustWondering]

This is true. But since God is the Creator, he has the right to impart the gift of life and he also has the right to withdraw that gift if someone is refusing to comply with his laws.

So his law trumps treating his creation with compassion and mercy. That is not a loving god.

 

[JustWondering]

Continuing life was conditional from the beginning. All Adam and his wife had to do was obey one simple command....not even a difficult one, and they could have lived forever. One act of disobedience lost them so much. (Gen 3:22-24)

Thank you for pointing out another illogical claim of the bible for me. Adam and Eve did not know good and evil (right and wrong) until AFTER eating from the tree of knowledge. Brutally punishing someone AND all their descendants for doing something when they didn't know better makes no sense. Before they ate the fruit they were running around naked and were pretty much animals, god's pets. It is a nonsensical story.

 

[JustWondering]

A parent will allow a child to undergo painful corrective surgery if the outcome will be a permanent cure for the ailment. This is what God is doing. The "operation" is a long one with complex procedures designed to make sure that the cure will be permanent, never needing another "operation" to fix it.

How many children in this world have died excruciatingly painful deaths from famine and disease. What horrendous slight to god did they commit to deserve that? What possible purpose does their suffering serve? You're telling me your loving AND all-powerful god's hands are tied so that he can only "cure" us by the most sadistic means possible?

 

[JustWondering]

No, sorry, that does not wash. The defect in man was NOT there at the beginning....unless you want to imply that free will was a defect?

Let's assume your mystical version of free will exists. Where did it come from? I'm going to go out on a limb and propose god created our free will. He created everything didn't he? So why would god who wanted obedient pets specifically create one species to have the potential to be disobedient by GIVING it free will? Totally illogical, makes no sense, whatsoever.

 

[JustWondering]

It was not God's fault that an abuse of free will landed him in a predicament that he chose in full knowledge of what he was doing.

Except it was god's fault because it was god who gave adam free will in the first place. It's like a bad parent giving their toddler a loaded gun and then shrugging and saying "not my fault!" after the child shots itself.

 

[JustWondering]

The fact that his children inherited his defect was taken care of by the atonement offered by Jesus.

Except we're still defective. Still see people sinning, we're still defective.

 

[JustWondering]

That was a lot to dismiss with a hand wave. The evidence is talking but you are not listening.

Saying "god did it!" is only evidence that you believe your god did it. I am not the choir. Please provide actual evidence and/or sound arguments, please.

 

[JustWondering]

I would love to refute it, but if you are not open to it why would I bother? If you really want to know I can share the evidence. It's all around you but your eyes and your heart are closed.
It will just bounce off. He cannot come into your life if you shut out all possibility for his existence.

Again, saying "god did it!" is only evidence for YOUR BELIEF that god exists, nothing more.

 

[Deeje]

Humans do not inflict natural disasters on themselves. Humans did not invent disease. Also, free will is never mentioned in the bible, in fact god hardened pharoh's heart so he would not release the slaves (he straight up mind controlled Pharaoh to be a jerk). The bible emphasizes obedience basically above all else. So I don't buy your free will argument, that's nonsense.

The fact is, independence from God was a choice that Adam made in full knowledge of the consequences. What makes you think he didn't know what he was doing?
The human race came out from under God's care and protection when they chose to obey another god. They separated from Jehovah......he did not separate from them.
He generously provided for them and if they had remained obedient, they would still be here enjoying life with all their children in peace and happiness.

God did not "make" Pharaoh's heart hard....Pharaoh's heart was already hard....God did not soften it...why would he? It was a reasonable request that Moses made for the Israelites to go into the wilderness to worship their God. Pharaoh was a proud and stubborn man. The ten plagues resulted from his stubborn refusal to allow Israel to worship their God....each plague designed to humiliate one of Egypt's gods. The last plague was the death of the firstborn. Pharaoh himself was viewed as a god and he could have stopped what happened to his people at any time because the minute he said Israel could go, God stopped the plague...then Pharaoh changed his mind....again and again till the last plague brought him to his knees. So with the death of his firstborn and heir, (the next god of Egypt) Pharaoh let Israel go...only to change his mind again and go after them. He paid the price for his pride and so did his whole army who perished in the Red Sea.

Pharaoh was indeed exercising his free will......and it cost his nation dearly.

 

[Deeje]

Thank you for pointing out another illogical claim of the bible for me. Adam and Eve did not know good and evil (right and wrong) until AFTER eating from the tree of knowledge. Brutally punishing someone AND all their descendants for doing something when they didn't know better makes no sense. Before they ate the fruit they were running around naked and were pretty much animals, god's pets. It is a nonsensical story.

You have a very twisted view of events....any wonder you are unhappy with that version of things.

Adam and his wife knew full well what the penalty was for disobeying the only law that carried the death penalty. A knowledge of evil was withheld from humankind because it would only bring trouble on the human race. Satan lied to the woman and made the fruit appear to be desirable, implying that God was withholding something that would benefit them.
The woman wasn't his target however. Adam knew full well what the law meant as God had taken quite some time to educate him before giving him a mate.....and as family head, he had passed on his education to his new wife. The Bible says that the woman was deceived by the serpent...but Adam wasn't. (1 Tim 2:14)
He made a deliberate choice to side with his disobedient wife and suffer the consequences. It was a test of his loyalty and he failed miserably.

Running around naked isn't exactly what the scriptures teach. It says that they felt no shame over their nakedness until after they sinned. The consequences of sin hit hard as they began to experience sinful thoughts...the very first ones were to do with their reproductive parts which they immediately covered up.

God's pets? Seriously?.... he treated them like the law breakers they were. There is not one single statement of remorse from either of them. They did not make a mistake, each abused their free will and made a willful decision to disobey their God....but for different reasons. In any case, the devil's plan worked and now there were three rebels to deal with. How God handled this situation had a bearing on all humankind as well as for his angelic creation for the rest of eternity, so he took the long term solution.

 

[Deeje]

How many children in this world have died excruciatingly painful deaths from famine and disease. What horrendous slight to god did they commit to deserve that? What possible purpose does their suffering serve? You're telling me your loving AND all-powerful god's hands are tied so that he can only "cure" us by the most sadistic means possible?

The answer to this is in Job. In targeting this faithful man, satan accused the entire human race of having purely selfish motives in serving a God who generously blessed them.
He basically said if he was allowed to take everything Job valued out of his life, that he would curse God to his face. Job lost his 10 children and all his material assets in one blow after another, yet the man kept his integrity, not blaming God for his misfortune. When that didn't work, satan tried a new tack. He said....“Skin for skin. A man will give everything that he has for his life.  But, for a change, stretch out your hand and strike his bone and flesh, and he will surely curse you to your very face.” (Job 2:4,5)

He didn't say that Job would give anything to save his life, but "a man"...meaning all humans. We are all Job...the devil will try his hardest to get people to curse God and leave him, but God knew that faithful ones who knew him would remain faithful as Job did, no matter what the devil threw at them...despite the severity of the trials, we too can imitate Job. The end of Job's story is not often told...but here is the lesson:

"After Job had prayed for his companions, Jehovah removed Job’s tribulation and restored his prosperity. Jehovah gave him double what he had before. 11 All his brothers and sisters and all his former friends came to him and ate a meal with him in his house. They sympathized with him and comforted him over all the calamity that Jehovah had allowed to come upon him. Each of them gave him a piece of money and a gold ring.
12 So Jehovah blessed the last part of Job’s life more than the beginning, and Job came to have 14,000 sheep, 6,000 camels, 1,000 pairs of cattle, and 1,000 female donkeys. 13 He also came to have seven more sons and three more daughters. 14 He named the first daughter Je·miʹmah, the second Ke·ziʹah, and the third Kerʹen-hapʹpuch. 15 No women in all the land were as beautiful as Job’s daughters, and their father gave them an inheritance along with their brothers.
16 After this Job lived for 140 years, and he saw his children and his grandchildren—four generations. 17 Finally Job died, after a long and satisfying life."

A faithful course, successfully enduring trials, will reap a large reward. (Prov 27:11)

 

[Deeje]

Let's assume your mystical version of free will exists. Where did it come from? I'm going to go out on a limb and propose god created our free will. He created everything didn't he? So why would god who wanted obedient pets specifically create one species to have the potential to be disobedient by GIVING it free will? Totally illogical, makes no sense, whatsoever.

What is illogical about giving earth's caretakers his own qualities? God has free will and he gave that gift to us.....but what was initially a blessing was turned into a curse when it was abused and free will became an excuse to abuse the free will of others.

 

[Deeje]

Except it was god's fault because it was god who gave adam free will in the first place. It's like a bad parent giving their toddler a loaded gun and then shrugging and saying "not my fault!" after the child shots itself.

Do you want to abolish free will and live a programmed life like the animals? I don't. I value the ability to make choices and to use my free will to the benefit of others.
I love the fact that I can choose what to wear....what to eat....what friends to have....what job I want.....what entertainment I like. All of that is the exercise of free will. How can you not value it?

Except we're still defective. Still see people sinning, we're still defective.

Its like a kidnapping. The human race was taken hostage in the garden and a ransom was demanded to set them free. That ransom was paid two thousand years ago and we are waiting to go home. God does not operate in earth time. The first rebel was a spirit so the issues raised had to be resolved in universal time.

 

[Deeje]

Saying "god did it!" is only evidence that you believe your god did it. I am not the choir. Please provide actual evidence and/or sound arguments, please.

If you take that attitude, you are basically distancing yourself from God. He will not have anything to do with those who have a rebellious spirit. He owes us nothing...not even an explanation, but he gives us all we need to know in his word. We owe him everything. Our life is a miracle if you stop and think about it. From all the eggs that your mother was born with, and the millions of sperm made by your father...the union of just one of each produced "you". There is no one like you in all of creation. Did God do that? No! Your parents did that. God just provided the mechanism....but the mechanism is awe inspiring! Creation itself is awe inspiring! Do you walk around with your eyes closed?

Again, saying "god did it!" is only evidence for YOUR BELIEF that god exists, nothing more.

Yes it is my belief, and there is nothing in existence that will convince you if you choose not to open your mind and heart to what is right in front of you. For a believer, no proof is necessary.....for the unbeliever, no proof is enough.

God doesn't need you or me...it is we who need him, if we want what he is offering. If you don't want what he is offering then shaking your fist at him is not going to make a scrap of difference to the outcome of your existence. It will end badly when it doesn't have to.

 

[Muffled]

So you believe in a deity because you have the "holy spirit" that you only receive after believing in the deity?

I believe oranges grow on trees. I have seen pictures of oranges growing on trees but I will not be certain that oranges grow on trees until I actually see one.

I believe it is the same way with God. I believe there is a God because the Bible tells me so and I have the testimonies of the people who know God but I don't really know there is a God until I have a personal relationship with Him.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Okay, which of the core principles of Unitarian Universalism would you like 'proof' for?

That existence is an interconnected web that we're all a part of? That a person should construct their worldview based on a free and responsible search for truth and meaning?

http://www.uua.org/beliefs/what-we-believe/principles

 

[Muffled]

That's fine, but you don't stop there. Your "logic" dictates that if something is complex it is assumed it has to be designed but the designer is exempt from this rule.

I believe that is the whole idea of a first cause ie that there is not a designer going infinitely back but that there must be an original designer at some point.

 

[Muffled]

Okay, which of the core principles of Unitarian Universalism would you like 'proof' for?

That existence is an interconnected web that we're all a part of? That a person should construct their worldview based on a free and responsible search for truth and meaning?

http://www.uua.org/beliefs/what-we-believe/principles

Let's start with the Trinity. I believe UU's broke away from the Congregational Church over this issue.

 

[Muffled]

There is no evidence of ANY supernatural being/force interfering in our affairs for our greater good, EVER. That's my evidence for my position. If you care to refute that please back your arguments with some kind of evidence, please.

I believe my post #300 serves as evidence.