Tucker Carlson, Colonel Douglas Macgregor, The Ukraine War

[We Never Know]

It's the implications of what you're saying. You're suggesting our intervention in Ukraine is somehow bad, because "what if it gets worse" or "what if Putin drops a nuke"? Because the alternative is literally allowing countries that have nukes, or invade other countries, to just do whatever they want with little to no international response. That's the logical consequence of your position. If helping Ukraine is bad, then what is the alternative?


You keep saying these things, and yet you acknowledge that there DON'T KNOW IF THERE IS AN ALTERNATIVE.

Let's make this simple: are you in favour of cutting off aid to Ukraine, and allowing them to be taken over by Russia, if it means an end to the war?

"Let's make this simple: are you in favour of cutting off aid to Ukraine, and allowing them to be taken over by Russia, if it means an end to the war?"

That would be an alternative.
Now let me make this simple as I've stated several times.. "I don't know of an alternative"

 

[Debater Slayer]

Allowing Ukraines to fight and die so you can play out your fantasy. This isn't a game, the war is real, Ukraine blood is being shed and you are all for drawing this out for what, as long as it takes? You're so brave.

Ukrainians have agency, and they're choosing to defend their country against imperialist aggression. Europe has tried to broker peace between Russia and Ukraine, but Putin wants major concessions that Ukraine rightfully refuses to give. Why would a sovereign nation agree to give up parts of its territory to an aggressor? Many people, Ukrainians and otherwise, would rather die defending their country than agree to such imperialistic "peace treaties."

No more blood would be shed if Putin pulled his forces out tomorrow. The onus is not on the defenders; it's on the regime that started the war and encroached on another sovereign nation's borders. The fact remains that there are exactly zero Ukrainian soldiers fighting in Russia, but there are hundreds of thousands of Russian soldiers fighting inside Ukraine's borders.

 

[We Never Know]

Ukrainians have agency, and they're choosing to defend their country against imperialist aggression. Europe has tried to broker peace between Russia and Ukraine, but Putin wants major concessions that Ukraine rightfully refuses to give. Why would a sovereign nation agree to give up parts of its territory to an aggressor? Many people, Ukrainians and otherwise, would rather die defending their country than agree to such imperialistic "peace treaties."

No more blood would be shed if Putin pulled his forces out tomorrow. The onus is not on the defenders; it's on the regime that started the war and encroached on another sovereign nation's borders. The fact remains that there are exactly zero Ukrainian soldiers fighting in Russia, but there are hundreds of thousands of Russian soldiers fighting inside Ukraine's borders.

"The fact remains that there are exactly zero Ukrainian soldiers in Ukraine"

Typo or am I missing something?

 

[Debater Slayer]

"The fact remains that there are exactly zero Ukrainian soldiers in Ukraine"

Typo or am I missing something?

Yes. Typing on a phone before having coffee is bad.

 

[lukethethird]

Please find a single example of me defending the US for any of those things. Or calling any of those things "border disputes". If the only response you can muster to defend Russian imperialism and your implicit defence of it is "but... but... but... America did (something similar) too!" then you don't have an ethical framework and you're not an anti-imperialist. You're just anti-American imperialism. But you're either indifferent (or explicitly supportive) when other countries do it.

Don't pretend you're anti-imperialist.

You denied that the US backed the Maidan coup in 2014 that overthrew the president in Ukraine that favoured Russia, and in turn placed a president in power that favoured the US. That's how democracy works in Ukraine, the democracy we are supposedly fighting for.

 

[lukethethird]

Ukrainians have agency, and they're choosing to defend their country against imperialist aggression. Europe has tried to broker peace between Russia and Ukraine, but Putin wants major concessions that Ukraine rightfully refuses to give. Why would a sovereign nation agree to give up parts of its territory to an aggressor? Many people, Ukrainians and otherwise, would rather die defending their country than agree to such imperialistic "peace treaties."

No more blood would be shed if Putin pulled his forces out tomorrow. The onus is not on the defenders; it's on the regime that started the war and encroached on another sovereign nation's borders. The fact remains that there are exactly zero Ukrainian soldiers fighting in Russia, but there are hundreds of thousands of Russian soldiers fighting inside Ukraine's borders.

The territory in question broke away from Ukraine after the Maidan coup in 2014, they are majority ethnically Russian, Ukraine wants the land but they want to purge the land of the Russian speaking people, Kiev has been bombing the territories since 2014. Putin was dead wrong by sending the troops in but then again Merkel, past chancellor of Germany, admitted since that the Minsk accords were a ruse to give Ukraine time to build up weapons, so western Europe was not negotiating with Russia on good faith as it turns out. What is the solution?

 

[Debater Slayer]

The territory in question broke away from Ukraine after the Maidan coup in 2014, they are majority ethnically Russian, Ukraine wants the land but they want to purge the land of the Russian speaking people, Kiev has been bombing the territories since 2014. Putin was dead wrong by sending the troops in but then again Merkel, past chancellor of Germany, admitted since that the Minsk accords were a ruse to give Ukraine time to build up weapons, so western Europe was not negotiating on good faith as it turns out. What is the solution?

What is the evidence that Ukraine wants to purge Russian-speaking people in any Ukrainian region?

As for the Minsk agreements, I'm not sure why it should be surprising that Merkel said they were intended to buy Ukraine more time. Russia never let go of the territory it annexed in 2014, and it was clear that Putin had no intention of halting the military aggression that he had started. The 2022 invasion proved that it was wise for Ukraine to buy itself more time to prepare for the predictable imperialist invasion.

I think a simple solution would be for Putin to pull his forces out of Ukraine, for NATO to acknowledge that being right on Russia's doorstep from different sides of the Russian border may not be a realistic or wise goal, and for Russia to show genuine goodwill by signing a peace treaty and giving back annexed Ukrainian territory.

Unfortunately, considering that Russia has shown it is willing to engage in military aggression against Ukraine and other neighbors (e.g., Georgia), it may well be too late now for it to demand that Ukraine not join NATO.

 

[We Never Know]

What is the evidence that Ukraine wants to purge Russian-speaking people in any Ukrainian region?

As for the Minsk agreements, I'm not sure why it should be surprising that Merkel said they were intended to buy Ukraine more time. Russia never let go of the territory it annexed in 2014, and it was clear that Putin had no intention of halting the military aggression that he had started. The 2022 invasion proved that it was wise for Ukraine to buy itself more time to prepare for the predictable imperialist invasion.

I think a simple solution would be for Putin to pull his forces out of Ukraine, for NATO to acknowledge that being right on Russia's doorstep from different sides of the Russian border may not be a realistic or wise goal, and for Russia to show genuine goodwill by signing a peace treaty and giving back annexed Ukrainian territory.

Unfortunately, considering that Russia has shown it is willing to engage in military aggression against Ukraine and other neighbors (e.g., Georgia), it may well be too late now for it to demand that Ukraine not join NATO.

"What is the evidence that Ukraine wants to purge Russian-speaking people in any Ukrainian region"

I don't know about purging but passing a law that grants special status to the Ukrainian language and makes it mandatory for public sector workers says quite a bit.

This was from 2019.

"KIEV (Reuters) - Ukraine’s parliament approved a law on Thursday that grants special status to the Ukrainian language and makes it mandatory for public sector workers, a move Russia described as divisive and said discriminated against Russian-speakers."

Ukraine passes language law, irritating president-elect and Russia

Ukraine's parliament approved a law on Thursday that grants special status to the Ukrainian language and makes it mandatory for public sector workers, a move Russia described as divisive and said discriminated against Russian-speakers.

www.reuters.com

 

[Father Heathen]

"We don't give a **** about the Ukrainian people. If we did, we'd be negotiating a peaceful end to this"

Instead we keep the war going which leads to more death and destruction on both sides

Is that the approach the U.S. and the U.K should've taken during WW2?

 

[Debater Slayer]

"What is the evidence that Ukraine wants to purge Russian-speaking people in any Ukrainian region"

I don't know about purging but passing a law that grants special status to the Ukrainian language and makes it mandatory for public sector workers says quite a bit.

This was from 2019.

"KIEV (Reuters) - Ukraine’s parliament approved a law on Thursday that grants special status to the Ukrainian language and makes it mandatory for public sector workers, a move Russia described as divisive and said discriminated against Russian-speakers."

Ukraine passes language law, irritating president-elect and Russia

Ukraine's parliament approved a law on Thursday that grants special status to the Ukrainian language and makes it mandatory for public sector workers, a move Russia described as divisive and said discriminated against Russian-speakers.

www.reuters.com

I'm not familiar enough with the details of the situation there to form an opinion, although I don't think the above could possibly justify an invasion either. Otherwise many countries would be up for an invasion for similar (or bigger) acts of discrimination.

 

[Father Heathen]

Well it doesn't follow the narrative.

It doesn't follow the logic or evidence.

 

[We Never Know]

Is that the approach the U.S. and the U.K should've taken during WW2?

Comparing ww2 to the ukraine war is a false equivlance. Different war different times.

 

[Father Heathen]

Why did Putin invade, though?

Has Putin's war failed and what does Russia want from Ukraine?

A year into Russia's war, he has little to show for it but there is no sign of an end.

www.bbc.com

Why was our country tampering around in the Ukraine? In their elections and political business? Why did we have bio labs there?
What if Russia was in Mexico or Canada doing the stuff we were doing in the Ukraine, do you think we would invade?

Ukraine, US Biolabs, and an Ongoing Russian Disinformation Campaign

In an attempt to justify Russia's invasion of Ukraine, propagandists claimed the attack was focused on secret U.S. biolabs there.

www.snopes.com

No conspiracy theory trash please. Thanks. Bearing false witness is a sin. I'll pray for you.

Why did we go out of our way initially to provoke the war ?

How did "we" do that? Did we switch road signs and they accidentally ended up in Ukraine?

That didn’t help the Ukrainian people.

Having their land, lives, and liberty taken from them didn't help the Ukrainian people.

Why hasn’t the US made any attempt to negotiate peace to stop the damage?

What sort of deal do you think the US should offer?

Wouldn’t that help the Ukrainian people more than perpetuating the destruction?

When the Amalekites' carried out an unprovoked attack against the Israelites in Exodus 17:8, should they have surrendered to The Amalekites to appease them?

 

[lukethethird]

What is the evidence that Ukraine wants to purge Russian-speaking people in any Ukrainian region?

As for the Minsk agreements, I'm not sure why it should be surprising that Merkel said they were intended to buy Ukraine more time. Russia never let go of the territory it annexed in 2014, and it was clear that Putin had no intention of halting the military aggression that he had started. The 2022 invasion proved that it was wise for Ukraine to buy itself more time to prepare for the predictable imperialist invasion.

I think a simple solution would be for Putin to pull his forces out of Ukraine, for NATO to acknowledge that being right on Russia's doorstep from different sides of the Russian border may not be a realistic or wise goal, and for Russia to show genuine goodwill by signing a peace treaty and giving back annexed Ukrainian territory.

Unfortunately, considering that Russia has shown it is willing to engage in military aggression against Ukraine and other neighbors (e.g., Georgia), it may well be too late now for it to demand that Ukraine not join NATO.

What is the evidence that Ukraine wants to purge Russian-speaking people in any Ukrainian region?

A brief look into the history of Ukraine will soon enough reveal its deep rooted hatred of Russia and the Russian speaking people of eastern Ukraine.

Unfortunately, considering that Russia has shown it is willing to engage in military aggression against Ukraine and other neighbors (e.g., Georgia), it may well be too late now for it to demand that Ukraine not join NATO.

That's one way of looking at it, but Russia's aggression in Georgia should have been an indication that Russia takes it's security seriously, but the west responded by threatening to put nato into Ukraine as well. Either side doesn't appear to know when or where to stop.

There is no easy solution, Kiev is bombing eastern Ukraine which is an odd way of convincing the Russian speaking people there to realign themselves with Kiev. At some point the border goes back to where it was or it incorporates the majority Russian speaking portions that broke away in 2014, personally I don't have a stake in this, I don't care where the border ends up as long as the fighting stops.

 

[Father Heathen]

Comparing ww2 to the ukraine war is a false equivlance. Different war different times.

Both involved invasions, annexations, occupations, war crimes, etc. So why didn't we choose peace and let Germany and The Soviet union keep the land they captured to stop the death and destruction?

What if Russia decided it wanted Alaska, invaded it, and then started raping, torturing, and murdering the American citizens living there? Would you suggest letting them keep it for the sake of peace?

 

[We Never Know]

Both involved invasions, annexations, occupations, war crimes, etc. So why didn't we choose peace and let Germany and The Soviet union keep the land they captured to stop the death and destruction?

What if Russia decided it wanted Alaska, invaded it, and then started raping, torturing, and murdering the American citizens living there? Would you suggest letting them keep it for the sake of peace?

How many countries were involved and fighting in ww2?

How many countries are involved and fighting in the ukraine war?

See a difference yet?

See why comparing ww2 to the ukraine war is a false equivlance. Different war different times.

 

[Estro Felino]

How many countries were involved and fighting in ww2?

How many countries are involved and fighting in the ukraine war?

See a difference yet?

Just two: Russia and Ukraine.
Yes...some warmongers tried to drag us Europeans into the war, but they miscalculated....poor them.

 

[We Never Know]

Just two: Russia and Ukraine.
Yes...some warmongers tried to drag us Europeans into the war, but they miscalculated....poor them.

And 50 or more in ww2

 

[ImmortalFlame]

You denied that the US backed the Maidan coup in 2014 that overthrew the president in Ukraine that favoured Russia,

Firstly, it wasn't a coup. It was a popular protest. Learn the definition of a "coup".

Secondly, America didn't "back" it in any meaningful way beyond vague verbal support, because the protests were against authoritarian anti-protest reforms and were against a government that rejected closer ties to the west.

Thirdly, Yanukovich was a Russian puppet who fled to Russia when his authoritarian reforms were rejected.

and in turn placed a president in power that favoured the US.

They didn't place them in power. The democratic processes that already existed in Ukraine put the next person in charge by default before a subsequent election was held.

That's how democracy works in Ukraine, the democracy we are supposedly fighting for.

The democracy where an unpopular, authoritarian ruler is ousted from power by a general protest (after turning the police on protestors, leaving over a hundred of them dead and over a thousand injured) and then subsequently trying to pass anti-protest laws that were considered authoritarian and draconian even by eastern European standards.

Yes. I would say a wannabe authoritarian fleeing from their country after being ousted by the people and then the democratic process resuming is a pretty good democracy.

Weird how you missed out all of those details.

For anyone interested, here are the actual details of the protests that lukethethird seems very keen to skimp out on:

Revolution of Dignity - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

By the way, you're an imperialist.

 

[Father Heathen]

How many countries were involved and fighting in ww2?

How many countries are involved and fighting in the ukraine war?

See a difference yet?

See why comparing ww2 to the ukraine war is a false equivlance. Different war different times.

How does that change the principle of the matter? Also, you failed to answer my question about Alaska.