Tucker Carlson, Colonel Douglas Macgregor, The Ukraine War

[ImmortalFlame]

That's one way of looking at it, but Russia's aggression in Georgia should have been an indication that Russia takes it's security seriously, but the west responded by threatening to put nato into Ukraine as well.

Wow. That is some serious re-framing going on there. Let's analyse this take (emphasis mine).

Firstly, this sentence:
"Russia's aggression in Georgia..."

Interesting phrasing, there. It's "aggression". Not, AN INVASION OF GEORGIA. It's just vaguely defined as "aggression in Georgia". Very interesting.

Let's continue:

"Russia's aggression in Georgia should have been an indication that Russia takes it's security seriously"

Again, SUPER interesting, there. The invasion is not a sign that, say, Russia is a militaristic, imperialist empire willing to invade its neighbours - it's a sign that Russia "takes it's security seriously". I wonder if luke would ever say that any American invasion of a foreign state is "an indication that America takes it's security seriously". It's almost as if luke is deliberately misrepresenting acts of Russian military aggression as somehow either necessary or justified or not actually invasions at all. Wow. What a surprise.

Then we have this doozy:

"but the west responded by threatening to put nato into Ukraine as well."

This may be the biggest stretch of them all.

"Threatening to put NATO into Ukraine as well"??

Notice how this framing denies any agency whatsoever to Ukraine. It's not as if Ukraine would have ANY interest in CHOOSING to join NATO (gee, I wonder why? Could it have anything to do with Russia "taking it's security so seriously" that they are willing to engage in "aggression" with states on their borders?? GEE, WHERE COULD THEY POSSIBILY HAVE GOTTEN THAT IDEA?!?!), and it's not as if NATO explicitly denied Ukraine membership multiple times. To luke, simply CONSIDERING allowing a sovereign state - with every reason to want NATO protection - to join NATO, is somehow "threatening" Russia with their membership.

Let's make this absolutely, 100% clear.

Ukraine has the right to join NATO. It can do that. Russia can swivel.

The only way in which NATO is a threat to Russia is that it prevents them from invading countries. So for Russia to kick up a fuss about that is a bit like a bully complaining that other kids shouldn't be allowed to run to the teacher because that would prevent them from kicking the little kids in the shins. Maybe stop kicking them in the shins, Mr Putin. Maybe stop doing the thing that makes NATO necessary and people will stop wanting to "run to teacher" and form defensive military alliances that prevent you from INVADING THEM.

So, in short, luke believes Russia doesn't engage in imperialism (or, at the very least, downplays it every chance it gets), nothing they do is their own fault, Ukraine has no will of its own and shouldn't be allowed to defend itself against Russia, and if Russia invades another country it only does so because of the "threat" of those countries preventing Russia from invading them.

lukethethird is an imperialist.

 

[Arthur Brain]

Ukrainians have agency, and they're choosing to defend their country against imperialist aggression. Europe has tried to broker peace between Russia and Ukraine, but Putin wants major concessions that Ukraine rightfully refuses to give. Why would a sovereign nation agree to give up parts of its territory to an aggressor? Many people, Ukrainians and otherwise, would rather die defending their country than agree to such imperialistic "peace treaties."

No more blood would be shed if Putin pulled his forces out tomorrow. The onus is not on the defenders; it's on the regime that started the war and encroached on another sovereign nation's borders. The fact remains that there are exactly zero Ukrainian soldiers fighting in Russia, but there are hundreds of thousands of Russian soldiers fighting inside Ukraine's borders.

Putin and his regime are responsible for not only the deaths of Ukrainians in this barbaric invasion but also "their" own troops, not that they give a flying redacted etc...

 

[lukethethird]

Wow. That is some serious re-framing going on there. Let's analyse this take (emphasis mine).

Firstly, this sentence:
"Russia's aggression in Georgia..."

Interesting phrasing, there. It's "aggression". Not, AN INVASION OF GEORGIA. It's just vaguely defined as "aggression in Georgia". Very interesting.

Let's continue:

"Russia's aggression in Georgia should have been an indication that Russia takes it's security seriously"

Again, SUPER interesting, there. The invasion is not a sign that, say, Russia is a militaristic, imperialist empire willing to invade its neighbours - it's a sign that Russia "takes it's security seriously". I wonder if luke would ever say that any American invasion of a foreign state is "an indication that America takes it's security seriously". It's almost as if luke is deliberately misrepresenting acts of Russian military aggression as somehow either necessary or justified or not actually invasions at all. Wow. What a surprise.

Then we have this doozy:

"but the west responded by threatening to put nato into Ukraine as well."

This may be the biggest stretch of them all.

"Threatening to put NATO into Ukraine as well"??

Notice how this framing denies any agency whatsoever to Ukraine. It's not as if Ukraine would have ANY interest in CHOOSING to join NATO (gee, I wonder why? Could it have anything to do with Russia "taking it's security so seriously" that they are willing to engage in "aggression" with states on their borders?? GEE, WHERE COULD THEY POSSIBILY HAVE GOTTEN THAT IDEA?!?!), and it's not as if NATO explicitly denied Ukraine membership multiple times. To luke, simply CONSIDERING allowing a sovereign state - with every reason to want NATO protection - to join NATO, is somehow "threatening" Russia with their membership.

Let's make this absolutely, 100% clear.

Ukraine has the right to join NATO. It can do that. Russia can swivel.

The only way in which NATO is a threat to Russia is that it prevents them from invading countries. So for Russia to kick up a fuss about that is a bit like a bully complaining that other kids shouldn't be allowed to run to the teacher because that would prevent them from kicking the little kids in the shins. Maybe stop kicking them in the shins, Mr Putin. Maybe stop doing the thing that makes NATO necessary and people will stop wanting to "run to teacher" and form defensive military alliances that prevent you from INVADING THEM.

So, in short, luke believes Russia doesn't engage in imperialism (or, at the very least, downplays it every chance it gets), nothing they do is their own fault, Ukraine has no will of its own and shouldn't be allowed to defend itself against Russia, and if Russia invades another country it only does so because of the "threat" of those countries preventing Russia from invading them.

lukethethird is an imperialist.

Such hyperbole. How does NATO prevent Russia from invading countries? NATO can do just as much to provoke a war as much as prevent one, case in point here but that is lost on you. When the Soviet Union put missiles in Cuba how did the US respond to that? Did they swivel? You expect Russia to swivel, how quaint. When are you going to learn to think things through, after you stop playing out the forces of good vs evil in your mind?

 

[lukethethird]

Wow. That is some serious re-framing going on there. Let's analyse this take (emphasis mine).

Firstly, this sentence:
"Russia's aggression in Georgia..."

Interesting phrasing, there. It's "aggression". Not, AN INVASION OF GEORGIA. It's just vaguely defined as "aggression in Georgia". Very interesting.

Let's continue:

"Russia's aggression in Georgia should have been an indication that Russia takes it's security seriously"

Again, SUPER interesting, there. The invasion is not a sign that, say, Russia is a militaristic, imperialist empire willing to invade its neighbours - it's a sign that Russia "takes it's security seriously". I wonder if luke would ever say that any American invasion of a foreign state is "an indication that America takes it's security seriously". It's almost as if luke is deliberately misrepresenting acts of Russian military aggression as somehow either necessary or justified or not actually invasions at all. Wow. What a surprise.

Then we have this doozy:

"but the west responded by threatening to put nato into Ukraine as well."

This may be the biggest stretch of them all.

"Threatening to put NATO into Ukraine as well"??

Notice how this framing denies any agency whatsoever to Ukraine. It's not as if Ukraine would have ANY interest in CHOOSING to join NATO (gee, I wonder why? Could it have anything to do with Russia "taking it's security so seriously" that they are willing to engage in "aggression" with states on their borders?? GEE, WHERE COULD THEY POSSIBILY HAVE GOTTEN THAT IDEA?!?!), and it's not as if NATO explicitly denied Ukraine membership multiple times. To luke, simply CONSIDERING allowing a sovereign state - with every reason to want NATO protection - to join NATO, is somehow "threatening" Russia with their membership.

Let's make this absolutely, 100% clear.

Ukraine has the right to join NATO. It can do that. Russia can swivel.

The only way in which NATO is a threat to Russia is that it prevents them from invading countries. So for Russia to kick up a fuss about that is a bit like a bully complaining that other kids shouldn't be allowed to run to the teacher because that would prevent them from kicking the little kids in the shins. Maybe stop kicking them in the shins, Mr Putin. Maybe stop doing the thing that makes NATO necessary and people will stop wanting to "run to teacher" and form defensive military alliances that prevent you from INVADING THEM.

So, in short, luke believes Russia doesn't engage in imperialism (or, at the very least, downplays it every chance it gets), nothing they do is their own fault, Ukraine has no will of its own and shouldn't be allowed to defend itself against Russia, and if Russia invades another country it only does so because of the "threat" of those countries preventing Russia from invading them.

lukethethird is an imperialist.

BTW, "Russia's aggression in Georgia..." was Debater Slayers usage, so take that up with him.

 

[anna.]

Putin and his regime are responsible for not only the deaths of Ukrainians in this barbaric invasion but also "their" own troops, not that they give a flying redacted etc...

Interesting how the Putin apologists don't seem to want to talk about the deaths for which Putin and his regime are responsible.

 

[Arthur Brain]

Interesting how the Putin apologists don't seem to want to talk about the deaths for which Putin and his regime are responsible.

Probably more interested in making excuses for it all. Pathetic.

 

[Arthur Brain]

Such hyperbole. How does NATO prevent Russia from invading countries? NATO can do just as much to provoke a war as much as prevent one, case in point here but that is lost on you. When the Soviet Union put missiles in Cuba how did the US respond to that? Did they swivel? You expect Russia to swivel, how quaint. When are you going to learn to think things through, after you stop playing out the forces of good vs evil in your mind?

Russia wasn't "under threat" from anyone and certainly not Ukraine so it's pointless to compare any of this with Cuba. Putin, along with his risible regime decided to invade a country in true despot "style", that's it.

 

[lukethethird]

Probably more interested in making excuses for it all. Pathetic.

Interesting how the Putin apologists don't seem to want to talk about the deaths for which Putin and his regime are responsible.

Unfortunately Putin, Biden, and Zelensky are all stooges, they can't muster up enough brain cells between the three of them to come up with a peace plan, just lunacy.

 

[lukethethird]

Russia wasn't "under threat" from anyone and certainly not Ukraine so it's pointless to compare any of this with Cuba. Putin, along with his risible regime decided to invade a country in true despot "style", that's it.

USA felt threatened by the Soviet Union placing missiles in Cuba, and now Russia feels threatened by the placement of missiles in Ukraine. But you are saying no, that Russia is just evil? OK, maybe they are evil and also felt threatened.

 

[Arthur Brain]

Unfortunately Putin, Biden, and Zelensky are all stooges, they can't muster up enough brain cells between the three of them to come up with a peace plan, just lunacy.

Well, for one, there wouldn't be any need for a peace plan if Putin and his despotic cohorts hadn't invaded Ukraine in the first place and it's hardly as if he'd be up for one anyway given how (more) embarrassing it would be for him to concede that his *special military operation* wasn't so special after all.

 

[Arthur Brain]

USA felt threatened by the Soviet Union placing missiles in Cuba, and now Russia feels threatened by the placement of missiles in Ukraine. But you are saying no, that Russia is just evil? OK, maybe they are evil and also felt threatened.

Ukraine had denuclearized and posed no threat. Your comparison is ridiculous.

 

[Father Heathen]

The onus is not on the defenders; it's on the regime that started the war and encroached on another sovereign nation's borders.

Precisely.

 

[lukethethird]

Ukraine had denuclearized and posed no threat. Your comparison is ridiculous.

You do know that Nato is a war treaty, do you not? Should Ukraine join Nato, it means that the west can and will put missiles right up to the Russian border just to show that evil empire and true despot who is boss,. Is it wise to make the evil empire and true despot feel threatened by that since they have nuclear weapons? Obviously the evil empire felt threatened by that and now the evil empire invaded Ukraine to provide a buffer zone between these missiles and their empire. This war treaty called Nato appears to be a self fulfilling prophecy does it not, isn't there another way?

 

[Brickjectivity]

Ukraine has the right to join NATO. It can do that. Russia can swivel.

Not unless NATO accepts its application, and it has not. NATO probably never would. NATO already rejected this before all this commotion, precisely because it did not wish to antagonize. That is not what Russia's aggression is about at all. Their aggression is based upon projecting Russian power out over centuries and having a land mass that for centuries is difficult to invade. Hence they have been claiming frozen land in the Arctic and seizing other sibling states. Ukraine is not the first, nor will it be their last point of contention, should they continue this miserable and pointless quest.

 

[Arthur Brain]

You do know that Nato is a war treaty, do you not? Should Ukraine join Nato, it means that the west can and will put missiles right up to the Russian border just to show that evil empire and true despot who is boss,. Is it wise to make the evil empire and true despot feel threatened by that since they have nuclear weapons? Obviously the evil empire felt threatened by that and now the evil empire invaded Ukraine to provide a buffer zone between these missiles and their empire. This war treaty called Nato appears to be a self fulfilling prophecy does it not, isn't there another way?

Are you kidding me here? Ukraine weren't part of NATO before invasion (or now) and had no nuclear weapons anyway. They had denuclearized as before. Suddenly they posed some massive threat that warranted this pathetic invasion? Um, nah.

 

[lukethethird]

Are you kidding me here? Ukraine weren't part of NATO before invasion (or now) and had no nuclear weapons anyway. They had denuclearized as before. Suddenly they posed some massive threat that warranted this pathetic invasion? Um, nah.

Zelensky told Putin flat out that they were joining Nato, just a few months before Russia invaded as a result. Don't you follow the news?

 

[Subduction Zone]

You do know that Nato is a war treaty, do you not? Should Ukraine join Nato, it means that the west can and will put missiles right up to the Russian border just to show that evil empire and true despot who is boss,. Is it wise to make the evil empire and true despot feel threatened by that since they have nuclear weapons? Obviously the evil empire felt threatened by that and now the evil empire invaded Ukraine to provide a buffer zone between these missiles and their empire. This war treaty called Nato appears to be a self fulfilling prophecy does it not, isn't there another way?

Yes, the missiles are there to stop Russia from invading other countries. That is why they were in much of western Europe. Now that eastern Europe is free and Russia still wants what it considers "its land" back, they would really appreciate the same protection.

What other country has invaded Russia since WWII? How many of its neighbors did Russia invade after that event? Russia is the aggressor and is complaining when the countries around it arm themselves in self defense. None of them would be foolish enough to invade Russia to try to take it over.. Russia on the other hand is large enough to invade its smaller neighbors. It has done so and they are likely to invade others if they win this one.

 

[Arthur Brain]

Zelensky told Putin flat out that they were joining Nato, just a few months before Russia invaded as a result. Don't you follow the news?

Cite? Where did he "flat out" tell Putin that Ukraine were joining NATO exactly? Not that that would justify Putin's crackpot invasion anyway but do share...

 

[lukethethird]

Yes, the missiles are there to stop Russia from invading other countries. That is why they were in much of western Europe. Now that eastern Europe is free and Russia still wants what it considers "its land" back, they would really appreciate the same protection.

What other country has invaded Russia since WWII? How many of its neighbors did Russia invade after that event? Russia is the aggressor and is complaining when the countries around it arm themselves in self defense. None of them would be foolish enough to invade Russia to try to take it over.. Russia on the other hand is large enough to invade its smaller neighbors. It has done so and they are likely to invade others if they win this one.

I know, Russia is evil, but then again the US did invade Grenada, yes Grenada. Is there a nation on this planet that is not evil to the core?

 

[We Never Know]

How does that change the principle of the matter? Also, you failed to answer my question about Alaska.

"How does that change the principle of the matter?"

WW2 was a world war involving over 50 country's. Ukraine and Russia are two kids on the block fighting each other. That doesn't make it right but its a false comparison to WW2.


"Also, you failed to answer my question about Alaska."

Since its a 'what if' why does it need my answer?

'What if' a god exists and would take care of that?