Tucker Carlson, Colonel Douglas Macgregor, The Ukraine War

[Shadow Wolf]

When the Amalekites' carried out an unprovoked attack against the Israelites in Exodus 17:8, should they have surrendered to The Amalekites to appease them?

Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones. Psalm 137:9.
That's what the Bible has to say about it. That's way more cruel, brut, blood thirsty and feral than anything Ukraine has done.

 

[lukethethird]

Not good to poke a bear unless the goal is to provoke it.

Enter neo-con stooges.

 

[EconGuy]

Genuine question.

If Russia attacked Ukraine out of fear of having a NATO country right on their boarder, a nation that was a former Soviet state and where a reasonable portion of the population are ethnic Russians, where recruiting support within Ukraine based on all of these factors would be easy, relative to other nations, then why did Russia sit back as Finland joined NATO. A nation where relations have been tolerable, but the nation lacks the history of Ukraine, and in fact the Fins surely remember the Winter war against Russia.

So, I'm just a little confused that people in the west are making excuses for Russia's attack on Ukraine as related to NATO membership.

I think the reason that Putin attacked is that Russia has spent billions creating Nordstream 1 and 2 to circumvent having to pay Ukraine to use overland pipelines though Ukraine only to learn that in the late 2000's that large oil and gas reserves were found near the Donbas region right under Bakmut where the worst fighting has been), in the EEZ off the coast of Crimea (that the Russians already annexed) and not far from Transnistria a break away area within Moldova that the Russian's have backed.

Go back to March of 2022, Russia could not standby and allow Ukraine to develop the 6th largest know gas and oil reserves in Asia and sell to Europe. This would create competition and it would reduce Europe's reliance on Russian oil and gas. Putin thought he'd have Ukraine in weeks, and Europe would sit around and argue about what to do about it.

No folks, the war is about energy resources. NATO is a coinvent pretext that, for some reason, people here in the US have latched on to.

 

[We Never Know]

Genuine question.

If Russia attacked Ukraine out of fear of having a NATO country right on their boarder, a nation that was a former Soviet state and where a reasonable portion of the population are ethnic Russians, where recruiting support within Ukraine based on all of these factors would be easy, relative to other nations, then why did Russia sit back as Finland joined Russia. A nation where relations have been tolerable, but the nation lacks the history of Ukraine, and in fact the Fins surely remember the Winter war against Russia.

So, I'm just a little confused that people in the west are making excuses for Russia's attack on Ukraine as related to NATO membership.

I think the reason that Putin attacked is that Russia has spent billions creating Nordstream 1 and 2 to circumvent having to pay Ukraine to use overland pipelines though Ukraine only to learn that in the late 2000's that large oil and gas reserves were found near the Donbas region right under Bakmut where the worst fighting has been), in the EEZ off the coast of Crimea (that the Russians already annexed) and not far from Transnistria a break away area within Moldova that the Russian's have backed.

Go back to March of 2022, Russia could not standby and allow Ukraine to develop the 6th largest know gas and oil reserves in Asia and sell to Europe. This would create competition and it would reduce Europe's reliance on Russian oil and gas. Putin thought he'd have Ukraine in weeks, and Europe would sit around and argue about what to do about it.

No folks, the war is about energy resources. NATO is a coinvent pretext that, for some reason, people here in the US have latched on to.

View attachment 81470

"then why did Russia sit back as Finland joined Russia"

Typo or??

And Finland just became a member of NATO April of this year. Maybe Russia figured one ongoing war was enough. Who knows.

 

[Sargonski]

Fair point, one comparison would be the nutcase Michael Flynn...

There you go again ... mistaking Patriotism for lunacy .... same with MacGregor. This is kind of a new Blue Neocon thing ... everything reversed and upside down .. Orwellian Doublespeak .. where the Ministry of Pleasure is where they torture people.

Funny how on both the Ukraine and Covid issue's the Blue Team ended up on the side of the Nazi's .. no coincidence there aye Brother Art..

 

[lukethethird]

Genuine question.

If Russia attacked Ukraine out of fear of having a NATO country right on their boarder, a nation that was a former Soviet state and where a reasonable portion of the population are ethnic Russians, where recruiting support within Ukraine based on all of these factors would be easy, relative to other nations, then why did Russia sit back as Finland joined Russia. A nation where relations have been tolerable, but the nation lacks the history of Ukraine, and in fact the Fins surely remember the Winter war against Russia.

So, I'm just a little confused that people in the west are making excuses for Russia's attack on Ukraine as related to NATO membership.

I think the reason that Putin attacked is that Russia has spent billions creating Nordstream 1 and 2 to circumvent having to pay Ukraine to use overland pipelines though Ukraine only to learn that in the late 2000's that large oil and gas reserves were found near the Donbas region right under Bakmut where the worst fighting has been), in the EEZ off the coast of Crimea (that the Russians already annexed) and not far from Transnistria a break away area within Moldova that the Russian's have backed.

Go back to March of 2022, Russia could not standby and allow Ukraine to develop the 6th largest know gas and oil reserves in Asia and sell to Europe. This would create competition and it would reduce Europe's reliance on Russian oil and gas. Putin thought he'd have Ukraine in weeks, and Europe would sit around and argue about what to do about it.

No folks, the war is about energy resources. NATO is a coinvent pretext that, for some reason, people here in the US have latched on to.

View attachment 81470

I don't know, I haven't heard of anyone in the west making excuses for Russia invading Ukraine. I know there is criticism of the narrative being spewed up in Washington by the neo-cons in power, and criticism of Putin for not exploring other diplomatic means rather than invading, but excuses, really? I don't know what Putin thought going in, I am not privy to his inner thoughts, so hard to say. Ever since the Berlin wall came down in '91, when the Soviet Union imploded, historians warned about Ukraine becoming a battlefield, long before these discoveries of natural gas.

 

[Yazata]

Too many people have said that this war is an occasion to dethrone Putin.

In February 2022 when Russia invaded Ukraine, the goal was simply Ukraine's survival as an independent country. I think that goal has already been met.

But today, largely due to Zelensky, and his American advisors perhaps, goals for the war have gone maximalist: Throw Russia out of Ukraine, reconquer the Donbass and Crimea, regime change in Russia, war crimes trials and huge reparations payments. The chances of all that ever happening are small to nil. What's more, Russia has already announced that they will defend Crimea with nuclear weapons, and I believe them. So would the US (or France or the UK) respond to a Russian nuclear attack on Ukraine with nuclear weapons of their own, thus committing suicide not only for their own countries, but for all of Western civilization? All for a country which can't by any stretch of the imagination be called a vital national interest? (While Ukraine clearly is a vital Russian national interest.)

It's not impossible to imagine Putin being dethroned, but it won't be the US or Ukraine doing it. It will be the Russians themselves. And if a coup happens, it will probably result in Putin being replaced by an even more hard-line militant Russian nationalist from the military or the security services. It won't serve Ukraine's, America's or Europe's interests.

So these people are disposed to sacrifice the Europeans' peaceful lifestyle in order to unleash a war against the tsar.

The Europeans are supporting the war in Ukraine with money and military supplies, just like the US is. The EU is proud of its hard-line sanctions. Just listen to some of the things that Ursula Van de Leyen says.

If Europe doesn't like the direction that this is headed (they would be stupid if they did) they need to propose some kind of negotiated settlement to stop the bloodshed.

That might include Russia keeping the territories they currently occupy and Ukraine getting a fast-track to European Union membership (linking Ukraine to the West but not really threatening Russia), while NATO membership is off the table. Both to reduce the provocation to Russia of having a hostile military alliance that deep in what they perceive as their "near abroad" sphere of influence, and to avoid locking the US into the treaty obligation to go to (potentially nuclear) war on Ukraine's behalf, when that clearly isn't remotely in the US (or the world's) interest.

 

[Estro Felino]

In February 2022 when Russia invaded Ukraine, the goal was simply Ukraine's survival as an independent country. I think that goal has already been met.

But today, largely due to Zelensky, and his American advisors perhaps, goals for the war have gone maximalist: Throw Russia out of Ukraine, reconquer the Donbass and Crimea, regime change in Russia, war crimes trials and huge reparations payments. The chances of all that ever happening are small to nil. What's more, Russia has already announced that they will defend Crimea with nuclear weapons, and I believe them. So would the US (or France or the UK) respond to a Russian nuclear attack on Ukraine with nuclear weapons of their own, thus committing suicide not only for their own countries, but for all of Western civilization? All for a country which can't by any stretch of the imagination be called a vital national interest? (While Ukraine clearly is a vital Russian national interest.)

It's not impossible to imagine Putin being dethroned, but it won't be the US or Ukraine doing it. It will be the Russians themselves. And if a coup happens, it will probably result in Putin being replaced by an even more hard-line militant Russian nationalist from the military or the security services. It won't serve Ukraine's, America's or Europe's interests.

I am absolutely, totally and utterly sure that the US plans to overthrow Putin since 2010s and has been using Ukraine as pawn and as a human shields. In other words: the Deep State's diabolical plan has been this: funding the Maidan coup, then favoring the election of Poroshenko. Poroshenko started to persecute the Russians of Donbas and Crimea. As a result, Crimea became independent after a referendum; Donbas' separatists made a referendum too, but didn't succeed in becoming independent from Kiev. The war between Donbas separatists and Kiev started. Poroshenko said in Odessa: "our Ukrainian children will go to school, their children (Donbas children) will be sitting inside basements all day: only by that we can win this war". Then there were the Minsk agreements, but they were just to let Ukrainians prepare themselves for the real war, that of 2022. Europeans decided to prevent a war from happening: in February 2022 Macron flew to Kiev to tell Zelenskyy to implement the Minsk agreements and give Donbas people autonomy and freedom. He didn't do it, probably because his American masters forced him to reject Macron's proposals. This is the evidence (and I have all documents and pieces of evidences proving it) that Americans have always wanted this war from breaking out. Europeans have always wanted to prevent this.
So, the plan is to induce Putin to invade Donbas so he would have appeared as the villain, the invader: that would have justified a European war to dethrone the tsar. And to destroy Russia.

The Europeans are supporting the war in Ukraine with money and military supplies, just like the US is. The EU is proud of its hard-line sanctions. Just listen to some of the things that Ursula Van de Leyen says.

I think Americans hardly understand Europeans' psychology. Germans have been a militarily occupied country since 1945. Their inner imperative is "to be nice and to appease the American ally". For instance, they say they support Ukraine and help them militarily to appease Americans and to tranquilize them. But behind the scenes, the EU leaders whisper to each other that they are really, really sick and tired of this war, of the sanctions, of the geopolitical instability. They are too polite to say it openly. They want this war to stop today.

If Europe doesn't like the direction that this is headed (they would be stupid if they did) they need to propose some kind of negotiated settlement to stop the bloodshed.

They are already doing it in Brussels. They proposed this deal: Putin keeps Crimea and the 4 regions, and in return Ukraine enters EU and NATO. I assure you that the diplomatic solutions prepared are countless.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Such hyperbole. How does NATO prevent Russia from invading countries?

It's a defensive military pact. I.E: if you invade this country, all these other countries will assist them in repelling you.

Obviously.

NATO can do just as much to provoke a war as much as prevent one, case in point here but that is lost on you.

NATO didn't "provoke" this war. Ukraine wanted to join and were repeatedly denied membership. Russia attacked Ukraine anyway.

Obviously.

When the Soviet Union put missiles in Cuba how did the US respond to that? Did they swivel? You expect Russia to swivel, how quaint.

The Soviet Union was an aggressive, expansionist, imperialist state. NATO is not. It's a defensive and reactive military alliance made up of individual states who volunteer membership.

Obviously.

When are you going to learn to think things through, after you stop playing out the forces of good vs evil in your mind?

This is ironic, coming from the "Russia invading Ukraine is a border dispute" and "the Euromaidan protest was a US-backed coup" guy. I'm guessing you read Grey Zone and never devoted a single further moment of your life to thinking about these things.

Hence why you're an imperialist.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

BTW, "Russia's aggression in Georgia..." was Debater Slayers usage, so take that up with him.

Eh, fair enough. I would still say all the rest of your spin was far worse.

That's literally the only thing you can respond to?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

"At the June 2021 Brussels summit, NATO leaders reiterated the decision taken at the 2008 Bucharest summit that Ukraine would eventually become a NATO member with the MAP as an integral part of the process, and Ukraine's right to determine its future and foreign policy without outside interference.[10] NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg also stressed that Russia will not be able to veto Ukraine's accession to NATO "as we will not return to the era of spheres of interest, when large countries decide what smaller ones should do."[11] Before further actions on NATO membership were taken, Russia launched a full-scale invasion of Ukraine on 24 February 2022."

Ukraine–NATO relations - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Sovereign states have the right to join military alliances with other nations.

So? Are you saying Russia - a country with a proven history of militarily invading its neighbours - should get to be the one to determine which countries are allowed to join foreign military alliances? Doesn't sound like a recipe for disaster at all.*

*Oh wait, they've already invaded Ukraine. Duh.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Not good to poke a bear unless the goal is to provoke it.

This is like saying a person calling the police on their abusive partner is at fault, because calling the police might lead to them being beaten even worse.

I mean, you realise this applies to NATO as well, right? By your same logic, Russia has provoked NATO, so why should we shed a tear when their provocation is met with military resistance?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Unfortunately Putin, Biden, and Zelensky are all stooges, they can't muster up enough brain cells between the three of them to come up with a peace plan, just lunacy.

Do you think that, maybe, one of those three is a bigger obstacle than the others?

Just a suggestion, but maybe the one who initiated the invasion and refuses peace talks without being given land that belongs to a foreign sovereign territory is slightly more of a brainless lunatic than the other two?

Weird how they're all equally at fault, according to you. When you equate psychopaths with non-psychopaths, you're essentially making excuses for the psychopath.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

They are already doing it in Brussels. They proposed this deal: Putin keeps Crimea and the 4 regions, and in return Ukraine enters EU and NATO. I assure you that the diplomatic solutions prepared are countless.

Or Ukraine keeps getting assistance to keep regaining territory and send the invaders back in body bags. Give in to a bully who was totally embarrassed by his invasion that did not at all go as he planned and it still just isn't working out for him? Maybe he's more American-like than European.

 

[Estro Felino]

Or Ukraine keeps getting assistance to keep regaining territory and send the invaders back in body bags. Give in to a bully who was totally embarrassed by his invasion that did not at all go as he planned and it still just isn't working out for him? Maybe he's more American-like than European.

Because you reason like an American: all that matters is winning.
Defeat is too humiliating for the US.

I prefer negotiation, honestly. Those four regions are nothing, Russia can have them. All that matters is that this awful war ends today.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Because you reason like an American: all that matters is winning.
Defeat is too humiliating for the US.

I prefer negotiation, honestly. Those four regions are nothing, Russia can have them. All that matters is that this awful war ends today.

There's nothing humiliating for America. It only matters to you because you read some alternative time line news stories or something.

 

[Estro Felino]

There's nothing humiliating for America. It only matters to you because you read some alternative time line news stories or something.

Ah, that's good news, then.
Because Kiev is supposed to obey Brussels' orders from now on.
And if Kiev wants to receive more €€€€€, it needs to comply with its directives.

 

[Copernicus]

I don't know, I haven't heard of anyone in the west making excuses for Russia invading Ukraine. I know there is criticism of the narrative being spewed up in Washington by the neo-cons in power, and criticism of Putin for not exploring other diplomatic means rather than invading, but excuses, really? I don't know what Putin thought going in, I am not privy to his inner thoughts, so hard to say. Ever since the Berlin wall came down in '91, when the Soviet Union imploded, historians warned about Ukraine becoming a battlefield, long before these discoveries of natural gas.

The timeline of what happened is pretty obvious, and it had to do with the popular rejection of closer ties to Russia within Ukraine--something that was known since Ukraine voted to leave the Soviet Union in a popular referendum. In 2004, Moscow favorite, Viktor Yanukovych, beat Viktor Yushchenko in a runoff election that was widely perceived as rigged in his favor by pro-Moscow authorities. During the election, Yushchenko was poisoned (probably by Vlad the Poisoner) but managed to survive. Popular nationwide protests (see: Orange Revolution) led to a new election being called, and that election, which was closely monitored, showed that Yushchenko was the clear winner. This clearly rankled Putin, who made no secret of his contempt for Ukrainian nationalist sentiment.

Nevertheless, Yanukovych did manage to make a comeback in 2010, winning the presidency in what was widely seen as a reasonably fair election. He campaigned on a promise to remain neutral, but he began moving towards closer economic ties with Russia. He had pledged to sign the European Union–Ukraine Association Agreement, but he reneged and instead signed an agreement with Putin to integrate more closely with Russia. This sparked the late 2013 Maidan protest, which Yanukovych tried to suppress violently. Predictably, the protesters responded to the violence with violent resistance and ultimately caused Yanukovych to flee in 2014.

That is why Putin invaded Crimea and eastern Ukraine (which he called by the Russian imperialist name "Novorossiya") in 2014, on the heels of Yanukovych's overthrow. He annexed Crimea and sponsored local armed insurrections in the eastern industrial territories. In 2022, Putin restarted the invasion with a military that was ill-prepared to conquer such a huge country with a much better prepared military defense. He thought the war would be over quickly, even though he was repeatedly and loudly warned by other countries not to do it. That's why he dragged his country down into the mess it is in today.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Ah, that's good news, then.
Because Kiev is supposed to obey Brussels' orders from now on.
And if he wants to receive more €€€€€, he needs to comply with its directives.

Now, I don't like bullies or tyrants. Putin is both. It's unfortunate for those living under him, especially those forced to go to Ukraine to kill and get killed, but they are still invaders and Ukraine is entitled to defend itself against a tyrant. The more body bags they send back to the tyrant the more difficult and complicated things get for the tyrant. Amd when their lives are made hard there's something to smile about in this world.

 

[Estro Felino]

Now, I don't like bullies or tyrants. Putin is both. It's unfortunate for those living under him, especially those forced to go to Ukraine to kill and get killed, but they are still invaders and Ukraine is entitled to defend itself against a tyrant. The more body bags they send back to the tyrant the more difficult and complicated things get for the tyrant. Amd when their lives are made hard there's something to smile about in this world.

Wars cannot last forever.