Tucker Carlson, Colonel Douglas Macgregor, The Ukraine War

[ImmortalFlame]

Good day

Let's try starting again. If you're NOT saying Russia should get to dictate which foreign nations get to join defensive military pacts, what ARE you saying?

And don't just fob me off with the "go back and read my posts" nonsense again, please. I want a concise elaboration on your personal perspective.

 

[We Never Know]

Let's try starting again. If you're NOT saying Russia should get to dictate which foreign nations get to join defensive military pacts, what ARE you saying?

And don't just fob me off with the "go back and read my posts" nonsense again, please. I want a concise elaboration on your personal perspective.

Here is the post I replied to...

Ukraine requested to join NATO after the invasion and wanted a no fly zone enacted that was refused. Anything else?

My reply...

"At the June 2021 Brussels summit, NATO leaders reiterated the decision taken at the 2008 Bucharest summit that Ukraine would eventually become a NATO member with the MAP as an integral part of the process, and Ukraine's right to determine its future and foreign policy without outside interference.[10] NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg also stressed that Russia will not be able to veto Ukraine's accession to NATO "as we will not return to the era of spheres of interest, when large countries decide what smaller ones should do."[11] Before further actions on NATO membership were taken, Russia launched a full-scale invasion of Ukraine on 24 February 2022."

Ukraine–NATO relations - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Now as you can see I didn't say anything.
Can you figure out why I posted that.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Here is the post I replied to...



My reply...




Now as you can see I didn't say anything.
Can you figure out why I posted that.

No, actually, since your post doesn't address what Arthur Brain said and doesn't contradict it. What's more, just one paragraph down from the part you quoted, it explicitly confirms what Arthur Brain said (emphasis mine):

"Polls conducted between 2005 and 2013 found low support among Ukrainians for NATO membership.[12][13][14][15][16][17] However, since the beginning of the Russo-Ukrainian War in 2014, Ukrainian public support for NATO membership has risen greatly. Since June 2014, polls showed that about 50% of those asked supported Ukrainian NATO membership.[18][19][20][21] A 2017 poll found that some 69% of Ukrainians wanted to join NATO, compared to 28% in 2012 when Yanukovych was in power.[22] On 30 September 2022, Ukraine formally applied to join NATO, following Russia's annexation of Southern and Eastern Ukraine.[23][24]"

Ukraine–NATO relations - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

So, what was your point?

 

[Sargonski]

Do you have a source for this?

Yes .. Douglas Macgregor and I actually took the claim down a notch .. he was claiming 90% .. but no need to nit pick over a few percentage points ... the region represents a huge proportion of Ukrainian GNP .. what more needs confirming ?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Yes .. Douglas Macgregor and I actually took the claim down a notch .. he was claiming 90% .. but no need to nit pick over a few percentage points ... the region represents a huge proportion of Ukrainian GNP .. what more needs confirming ?

I mean a direct source, like a link? When I Google "Douglas MacGregor Donbas GNP" I can't find a source.

The closest thing I can seem to find is this source from 2020 which claims that the Donbas accounts for only around 6% of Ukraine's overall GDP:

https://ukrstat.gov.ua/druk/publicat/kat_u/2022/zb/05/zb_vvp_2020.pdf

 

[Estro Felino]

So, in the West's eyes, they see it as an open-and-shut case, with Putin being declared the guilty party who should be arrested and put on trial before an international tribunal. At least from that standpoint, Putin is as guilty as a cat in a goldfish bowl.

Of course, such a view might be seen as too Western-centric and doesn't really take into consideration the root causes and the long-term historical circumstances. Maybe some mistakes were made in the early 1990s and the Russians felt they got cheated. Perhaps some buyer's remorse that could have been addressed sooner. There's also been apparently a great deal of bad blood and resentment built up between Russians and Ukrainians which have their roots going back centuries. I think if more people took the time to understand the history of the region, it would be a lot easier to understand why the Russians see the world as they do.

My premise is this: I love American people. I love American commoners.

But I would like Americans to understand this: why is my country the most Russophile in Western Europe?
Because they admire great leaders like Putin, especially after Nine Eleven.

Nine Eleven happened because evidently America's political correctness and sometimes laxness made those hijackers enter the country and do what they did.
In Russia it didn't happen and it could never happen because they have intelligence services (like the modern KGB) that monitor anything and anyone.
My compatriots prefer a strong leader that inspire national security and patriotism.

 

[We Never Know]

No, actually, since your post doesn't address what Arthur Brain said and doesn't contradict it. What's more, just one paragraph down from the part you quoted, it explicitly confirms what Arthur Brain said (emphasis mine):

"Polls conducted between 2005 and 2013 found low support among Ukrainians for NATO membership.[12][13][14][15][16][17] However, since the beginning of the Russo-Ukrainian War in 2014, Ukrainian public support for NATO membership has risen greatly. Since June 2014, polls showed that about 50% of those asked supported Ukrainian NATO membership.[18][19][20][21] A 2017 poll found that some 69% of Ukrainians wanted to join NATO, compared to 28% in 2012 when Yanukovych was in power.[22] On 30 September 2022, Ukraine formally applied to join NATO, following Russia's annexation of Southern and Eastern Ukraine.[23][24]"

Ukraine–NATO relations - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

So, what was your point?

The point is in June 2021 NATO was talking about taking Ukraine in and said Russia would not be able to veto Ukraine's accession to NATO. So before NATO made a decision Russia attacked Ukraine in Feb 2022.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

The point is in June 2021 NATO was talking about taking Ukraine in and said Russia would not be able to veto it. So before NATO made a decision Russia attacked Ukraine in Feb 2022.

And what does that have to do with Arthur Brain's statement that Ukraine REQUESTED to join NATO after the invasion?

 

[We Never Know]

And what does that have to do with Arthur Brain's statement that Ukraine REQUESTED to join NATO after the invasion?

Ukraine had been asking for years. It was showing in June 2021 NATO was talking about taking Ukraine in and said Russia would not be able to veto it. So before NATO made a decision Russia attacked Ukraine in Feb 2022.

That is what Putin used for his reason to attack Ukraine.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Ukraine had been asking for years.

Not quite. They had made plans, but these plans were shelved by Ukraine following the 2010 election. The claim Arthur was responding to was that Ukraine "threatened to join NATO", which they didn't. NATO just said they MAY consider Ukraine's membership, but Ukraine never formally applied to join NATO until after the invasion. Again, from your source (emphasis mine):

"Relations between Ukraine and the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) started in 1991.[1] Ukraine applied to integrate with a NATO Membership Action Plan (MAP) in 2008.[2][3] Plans for NATO membership were shelved by Ukraine following the 2010 presidential election in which Viktor Yanukovych, who preferred to keep the country closer to Russia, was elected President.[4] Yanukovych fled Ukraine in February 2014 during the Revolution of Dignity.[5] The interim Yatsenyuk Government initially said that it had no plans to join NATO.[6] However, following the Russian annexation of Crimea and Russian military support for armed separatists in eastern Ukraine, the Second Yatsenyuk Government made joining NATO a priority.[7] In February 2019, the Ukrainian parliament voted to amend the Constitution of Ukraine to state Ukraine's goal of NATO and European Union membership.[8][9]"

Note that none of the above says that Ukraine REQUESTED to join NATO. They didn't REQUEST to join NATO until 2022, after the invasion the same year. A statement of intent, yes, but not an official REQUEST. Arthur Brain's statement was correct.

It was showing in June 2021 NATO was talking about taking Ukraine in and said Russia would not be able to veto it. So before NATO made a decision Russia attacked Ukraine in Feb 2022. That is what Putin used for his reason to attack Ukraine.

Right. But what does that have to do with Arthur Brain's statement that Ukraine REQUESTED to join NATO after the invasion? That is an accurate statement. Your source supports that.

 

[Sargonski]

I mean a direct source, like a link? When I Google "Douglas MacGregor Donbas GNP" I can't find a source.

The closest thing I can seem to find is this source from 2020 which claims that the Donbas accounts for only around 6% of Ukraine's overall GDP:

https://ukrstat.gov.ua/druk/publicat/kat_u/2022/zb/05/zb_vvp_2020.pdf

Russia has taken a whole lot more than the Donbass .. and he probably mentiones it in the link in this Thread.. would not expect such an innocuous google search to come up with anything .. especially "Donbass GNP"

Just watch a few of his interviews .. seems like he does 2 or 3 a day.. you could definitely use the fresh perspective ... get up to speed on what is really going on... as opposed to feeding on only the mass propaganda spin machine found under the dictionary heading "Fog of War"

Your in big Fog Mode --- not accessing information outside the propaganda show .... and It is not like Doug is the only US Patriot on the page .. Large numbers of credible US analysts = "Not Russian Propaganda" ..

Sr. Advisor to the Secretary of Defense (2020) - Only a moronic idiot would claim such a person was a Russian Stooge-- without some kind of solid evidence .. Pics of him and Putin in a Hot Tub .. Why would you listen to these media clowns - who don't believe what they are saying - but you do ?

Did you really think Trump and Tulsi Gabbard were Russian State Actors .. as was stated by the likes of Hillary Clinton ? Was there no "this is really stupid" alarm bell go off in your head ? How deep into the land of the duped do we need to go here ? I had 2 posters .. a tag team .. on another Forum claiming adamantely that there is no Propaganda in the Western Media/Punditry. Can I add you to that list ? Surly you have heard many talk about the "Freedom of the Press" in the West vs that terrible Russian Propaganda .. some of which is true .. can we get your signature .. join club disingenuous oblivion ?

Your first cancel culture assignment .. below is "NOT" what a Patriot Looks like .. this is what an anti american Putin stooge looks like .. Got it !

Macgregor led a contingent of 49 fighting vehicles in "the last great tank battle of the 20th century" without suffering any casualties.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Russia has taken a whole lot more than the Donbass .. and he probably mentiones it in the link in this Thread.. would not expect such an innocuous google search to come up with anything .. especially "Donbass GNP"

I've checked the transcript of both it and other videos, and I can't find any instance of him making that claim.

Could you just provide a quote, if nothing else?

 

[SkepticThinker]

I do attack Russia and Putin ... Do you not understand what the term "Anti War" means ? - it means "Anti War" Providing arms to Ukraine is war by proxy .. is prolonging the war .. causing more death and destruction ... in a war provoked in large part by USA-NATO.

So we should stop helping arm Ukraine and just let them lose against the country that invaded them?

 

[SkepticThinker]

Why are you interested in the Taste of Putin's butt ??! ... I realize that you have a foul taste in your mouth from drinking down the spiked kool-aid - and a somewhat butt-hurt for being so gullible .. but that is no reason to shoot the messenger and turn into a Potty mouth .. in defense of totalitarianism .. now interested in a Taste of Putin style authoritarianism .. but expressing it in a strange foul mouthed way ?

You get what you give.

 

[SkepticThinker]

How many countries were involved and fighting in ww2?

How many countries are involved and fighting in the ukraine war?

See a difference yet?

See why comparing ww2 to the ukraine war is a false equivlance. Different war different times.

WWII Started when German troops invaded Poland. It escalated from there when Hitler decided he was just going to keep going.

"How does that change the principle of the matter?"

WW2 was a world war involving over 50 country's. Ukraine and Russia are two kids on the block fighting each other. That doesn't make it right but its a false comparison to WW2.


"Also, you failed to answer my question about Alaska."

Since its a 'what if' why does it need my answer?

'What if' a god exists and would take care of that?

It didn't start with 50 countries though, did it. It's where it ended up.

 

[Colt]

Zelenskyy 'bombed' at his first White House meeting and 'pissed Biden off,' says new book​

Story by [email protected] (Rebecca Rommen) •1h

"The Ukrainian president had long sought a White House meeting amid mounting tensions with Russia. Donald Trump, who was still US President when Zelenskyy started his term, rejected a meeting with the Ukrainian president because he refused to help him uncover information about Trump's rivals — a futile quest that ultimately led to Trump's first impeachment.

Foer says Zelenskyy harbored "lingering resentments from the episode" and "at least subconsciously seemed to blame" Biden when he succeeded Trump, "for the humiliation he suffered, for the political awkwardness he endured."

Biden expected gratitude for US support, Foer writes. Instead, Zelenskyy "crammed his conversations with a long list of demands," including NATO membership."

MSN

www.msn.com

 

[SkepticThinker]

There you go again ... mistaking Patriotism for lunacy .... same with MacGregor. This is kind of a new Blue Neocon thing ... everything reversed and upside down .. Orwellian Doublespeak .. where the Ministry of Pleasure is where they torture people.

It sounds like you've just described your position.

Funny how on both the Ukraine and Covid issue's the Blue Team ended up on the side of the Nazi's .. no coincidence there aye Brother Art..

What the ... ?

 

[Tomef]

An alternate view to the mainstream media's narrative and support for the Ukraine war.

In the first few seconds he’s already told several lies. If you actually read the ‘mainstream media’, the NYT and others he refers to, the picture is entirely different. The situation is complex, the reporting is complex. Read around a bit and you can easily find out Carlson is a bare-faced liar.

Just where is this supposed reporting he refers to? It’s a total misrepresentation, as you can easily find out within minutes.

The Russian army is treating POWs ‘gently’? Astonishing.

What prevents you from checking that kind of thing? Within 20 minutes or so you could check if reporting in the ‘MSM’ matches his description. You can look to the MSM for any of the points raised in the vid, just pic one and you can find a more balanced view of it from a more credible, more honest source. Go ahead, pick a point you think Tucker is reporting on with integrity, lets see what he’s missing out.

His conclusions are as dumb as a prehistoric egg. US troops will fight Putin? What utter dumbness.

 

[Sargonski]

I've checked the transcript of both it and other videos, and I can't find any instance of him making that claim.

Could you just provide a quote, if nothing else?

Sorry mate .. the fellow does 20 podcasts/ interviews per week .. he is not going to same the same thing in all of them .. but he has repeated this narrative a number of times .. talks about the Black Earth in that Region .. the Nazi's would ship the stuff back to Germany so fertile .. but he may say this 1 time in 10 or 20 of his podcasts so not going to go through hours of transcripts trying to find the quote. I did try a few though .. no success .. didn't know you could get transcripts like that so thanks for that much. I watch the guy 2 or 3 times a week for updates .. but you could watch him 2 or 3 times a day .. he is all over the place doing interviews .. Judge Neopolitano is one of his weekly stops .. those convo's good to listen to.

Why you so fixated on this silly statistic though .. what is it going to prove or disprove either way that we should waste so much time on insignificant detail ? East Ukraine produces a big chunk of the Nations GNP - and what would be the point of making up something like that .. Zero .. was 90% slightly exaggerated .. maybe ? (seemed so to me so I posted 80%) but who cares to the overall picture ??

 

[lukethethird]

So we should stop helping arm Ukraine and just let them lose against the country that invaded them?

Would Donbass be better off becoming part of Russia, Ukraine, independant, or just fight to the last man?