Tucker Carlson, Colonel Douglas Macgregor, The Ukraine War

[Sargonski]

It sounds like you've just described your position.

What the ... ?

What the ... ? Sounds like you have nothing to say but unsupported silliness once again. Did you not understand the term "Nazi" ? Which part of the term did you not get ? -- time to put that Skeptic Thinker cap on friend

 

[SkepticThinker]

Would Donbass be better off becoming part of Russia, Ukraine, independant, or just fight to the last man?

I'm on the side of helping defend people who have been invaded.

 

[SkepticThinker]

What the ... ? Sounds like you have nothing to say but unsupported silliness once again. Did you not understand the term "Nazi" ? Which part of the term did you not get ? -- time to put that Skeptic Thinker cap on friend

I know what a Nazi is, thanks.

The unsupported silliness appears to be yours, with statements like, "Funny how on both the Ukraine and Covid issue's the Blue Team ended up on the side of the Nazi's .. no coincidence there aye Brother Art.."

What are you talking about?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Ukraine had been asking for years. It was showing in June 2021 NATO was talking about taking Ukraine in and said Russia would not be able to veto it. So before NATO made a decision Russia attacked Ukraine in Feb 2022.

That is what Putin used for his reason to attack Ukraine.

And obviously they were justified in that request. NATO doesn't have a history of attacking the innocent. Russia does have such a history.

 

[EconGuy]

Energy resources are a sidebar to the main goal: empire building. Or in Putin's mind: empire rebuilding. Here he is in his own words, comparing himself to Peter the Great, which Ukraine understood at the time as Putin intended it to be understood:

We visited the exhibition dedicated to the 350th birth anniversary of Peter the Great. Almost nothing has changed. It is a remarkable thing. You come to this realisation, this understanding.​

​

Peter the Great waged the Great Northern War for 21 years. On the face of it, he was at war with Sweden taking something away from it… He was not taking away anything, he was returning. This is how it was. The areas around Lake Ladoga, where St Petersburg was founded. When he founded the new capital, none of the European countries recognised this territory as part of Russia; everyone recognised it as part of Sweden. However, from time immemorial, the Slavs lived there along with the Finno-Ugric peoples, and this territory was under Russia’s control. The same is true of the western direction, Narva and his first campaigns. Why would he go there? He was returning and reinforcing, that is what he was doing.​

​

Clearly, it fell to our lot to return and reinforce as well. And if we operate on the premise that these basic values constitute the basis of our existence, we will certainly succeed in achieving our goals.​

​

​

​

Quite right. It's one in the same. Can't be empire without controlling regional resources and using those resources as a way to oppress others. That said, I'm aware of Putin's affection of heyday of the old USSR.

 

[Copernicus]

Ukraine had been asking for years. It was showing in June 2021 NATO was talking about taking Ukraine in and said Russia would not be able to veto it. So before NATO made a decision Russia attacked Ukraine in Feb 2022.

That is what Putin used for his reason to attack Ukraine.

Russia had already attacked and invaded Ukraine in 2014. In 2022, it simply renewed its drive to take more Ukrainian territory. There was no imminent decision in 2022 for Ukraine to join NATO, nor was there any event pending that justified the invasion. There was an international outcry against the obvious preparations for a renewed invasion, but Putin turned a deaf ear to them.

NATO exists for one purpose--to oppose Russian expansionism into Europe. After the collapse of the Soviet Union, every single satellite nation in the former Warsaw Pact rushed to join NATO and strengthen ties to western European economies. Moreover, the formerly Soviet-occupied Baltic republics also rushed to join NATO. Ukraine, with its past history of Soviet atrocities committed by Stalin (Holodomor, Great Purge), also wanted to join NATO as insurance against Russian expansionism. It is true that many Ukrainians have strong family and cultural ties to Russia, but that doesn't mean that they wanted to become part of Russia. The eastern regions, along with the rest of Ukraine including Crimea, all voted for independence from the Russian dominated Soviet Union. Russia had signed an agreement to respect Ukraine's sovereignty with the 1994 Budapest Memorandum, and we've seen how well that worked out. At present, there is no agreement that Ukraine can come to with Russia that can serve to protect it from more invasions by Russia in the future. Therefore, its demands to join NATO have been entirely understandable and reasonable. The only possible diplomatic solution to the current war must be with Ukraine joining NATO. NATO did not expand into Eastern European nations. Eastern European nations expanded into NATO.

Vladimir Putin is purely and simply a fascist dictator with an ethnocentric view of nationhood that bears many similarities to Adolph Hitler's Nazism. His insistence on occupying Ukraine relies on the same kind of logic that drove the Anschluss with Austria and the annexation of the Sudetenland in Czechoslovakia. He also uses the ethnic Russian populations in the Baltic countries as an excuse for meddling in their internal affairs, although their membership in NATO protects them from a Ukraine-style invasion. Belarus is already pretty much a vassal state of the Russian Federation. Putin's "United Russia" (Yedinaya Rossiya) party isn't yet as brutal as the Nazi Party became in Germany, but its basic philosophy is to promote ethnic Russian dominance over other regional ethnic minorities both inside the Russian Federation and to promote the interests of what they call "ethnic Russians" in neighboring countries, based on their dominant language. It doesn't matter whether the so-called "ethnic Russians" in those countries want to be assimilated. They are assumed to want it.

 

[lukethethird]

Russia had already attacked and invaded Ukraine in 2014. In 2022, it simply renewed its drive to take more Ukrainian territory. There was no imminent decision in 2022 for Ukraine to join NATO, nor was there any event pending that justified the invasion. There was an international outcry against the obvious preparations for a renewed invasion, but Putin turned a deaf ear to them.

NATO exists for one purpose--to oppose Russian expansionism into Europe. After the collapse of the Soviet Union, every single satellite nation in the former Warsaw Pact rushed to join NATO and strengthen ties to western European economies. Moreover, the formerly Soviet-occupied Baltic republics also rushed to join NATO. Ukraine, with its past history of Soviet atrocities committed by Stalin (Holodomor, Great Purge), also wanted to join NATO as insurance against Russian expansionism. It is true that many Ukrainians have strong family and cultural ties to Russia, but that doesn't mean that they wanted to become part of Russia. The eastern regions, along with the rest of Ukraine including Crimea, all voted for independence from the Russian dominated Soviet Union. Russia had signed an agreement to respect Ukraine's sovereignty with the 1994 Budapest Memorandum, and we've seen how well that worked out. At present, there is no agreement that Ukraine can come to with Russia that can serve to protect it from more invasions by Russia in the future. Therefore, its demands to join NATO have been entirely understandable and reasonable. The only possible diplomatic solution to the current war must be with Ukraine joining NATO. NATO did not expand into Eastern European nations. Eastern European nations expanded into NATO.

Vladimir Putin is purely and simply a fascist dictator with an ethnocentric view of nationhood that bears many similarities to Adolph Hitler's Nazism. His insistence on occupying Ukraine relies on the same kind of logic that drove the Anschluss with Austria and the annexation of the Sudetenland in Czechoslovakia. He also uses the ethnic Russian populations in the Baltic countries as an excuse for meddling in their internal affairs, although their membership in NATO protects them from a Ukraine-style invasion. Belarus is already pretty much a vassal state of the Russian Federation. Putin's "United Russia" (Yedinaya Rossiya) party isn't yet as brutal as the Nazi Party became in Germany, but its basic philosophy is to promote ethnic Russian dominance over other regional ethnic minorities both inside the Russian Federation and to promote the interests of what they call "ethnic Russians" in neighboring countries, based on their dominant language. It doesn't matter whether the so-called "ethnic Russians" in those countries want to be assimilated. They are assumed to want it.

How easy do you think it would have been for the neocons in Washington to exploit the deep rooted hatred the Nazi battalions in Ukraine have towards Russians and the Russian speaking people of Donbass?

How easy would it have been for the neocons to provoke Putin considering how trigger happy he is?

How much taxpayers money has exchanged hands as munitions are sent overseas since this attack, about one hundred and fifty billion so far?

How easy would it be for corporate news to inform the public that this was an unprovoked attack by Russia?

 

[Arthur Brain]

Yes they did .. and my apologies ... but correcting the spoon fed propaganda false narrative .. of the New True Blue Neocon crew .. neither defends nor justifies Putin's invasion .. the apology for despotism .. coming from your end ... Apologizing for the Azov Nazi .. spouting Azov Nazi Propaganda - and apology for despotism.

I don't spout or make excuses for propaganda of any sort thanks and frankly, this post of yours is as garbled as it gets.

 

[Arthur Brain]

"At the June 2021 Brussels summit, NATO leaders reiterated the decision taken at the 2008 Bucharest summit that Ukraine would eventually become a NATO member with the MAP as an integral part of the process, and Ukraine's right to determine its future and foreign policy without outside interference.[10] NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg also stressed that Russia will not be able to veto Ukraine's accession to NATO "as we will not return to the era of spheres of interest, when large countries decide what smaller ones should do."[11] Before further actions on NATO membership were taken, Russia launched a full-scale invasion of Ukraine on 24 February 2022."

Ukraine–NATO relations - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Oh, so Putin decided to invade a sovereign country solely because they might have ended up as part of NATO and didn't like it? Even though they'd denuclearized and posed no threat? There's no excuse for the barbaric invasion of Ukraine, at all. Ukraine didn't request to join NATO until after Putin's risible invasion as recorded before.

 

[Arthur Brain]

There you go again ... mistaking Patriotism for lunacy .... same with MacGregor. This is kind of a new Blue Neocon thing ... everything reversed and upside down .. Orwellian Doublespeak .. where the Ministry of Pleasure is where they torture people.

Funny how on both the Ukraine and Covid issue's the Blue Team ended up on the side of the Nazi's .. no coincidence there aye Brother Art..

What in the name of anything approaching sanity are you going on about?

 

[Sargonski]

I know what a Nazi is, thanks.

The unsupported silliness appears to be yours, with statements like, "Funny how on both the Ukraine and Covid issue's the Blue Team ended up on the side of the Nazi's .. no coincidence there aye Brother Art.."

What are you talking about?

What Unsupported silliness ? .. Told you before about the Azov Nazi .. and anyone knows anything about the Ukraine conflict has heard of them .. do you not recognize the Logo ?

Is this a case of disingenuous Oblivion .. or memory lapse .. ? What part of Azov Nazi Explanation did you not previously understand ... What further substantiation would you like .. a word from Congress ? would that sufficith .. but .. oh Wait .. I forgot too now .. already Told you that Congress said so .. did you need the link a second time ?

Yes Friend .. Neo Nazi's .. in Ukraine.. for many years .. persecuting the Ethnic Russians .. Treat them like Sub-Human .. Just like their Hero's treated the Jews - Gays - and various other undesirables .. unfit .. unclean Called Ethnic Russians "Orcs" in the Purjorative .. taught in the songs at Band Camp to the young ones .. the dehumanization tropes .. marginalized .. Propagandized .. and then these Got the Backing of the Gov't .. State Sanctioned armed Militia groups now Running down Ethnic Russians - with Nazi Symbology everywhere .. cause they worship and Idolize the Nazi movement ... Civil war erupts in 2014 .. after the Coup ... 15,000 civilians killed over the ensuing years .. Stuff they don't teach in CNN school aye mate. Then we had the Minsk Accord .. Ukraine agreed to stop Abusing the Ethnic Russians .. but they never did .. and US-NATO didn't adhere to their end of the bargain .. and well .. thats all water under the bridge now isn't it dear.

but you sit here and pretend not to know crying out "What Nazi's" as if you have not heard this before .. "I know Nothing" like Seargent Shultz .. in Hogan's Hero's .. and then ask me why I call you a pretender ..

 

[Copernicus]

How easy do you think it would have been for the neocons in Washington to exploit the deep rooted hatred the Nazi battalions in Ukraine have towards Russians and the Russian speaking people of Donbass?

Not easy at all, since Ukraine has exactly as many Nazi battalions as Russia does, which is to say none. Both countries have ultranationalist bigots that hate each other, but they need each other in order to validate their own existence. The problem, as I see it, is that a great many Russians and Ukrainians tend to identify nationhood with loyalties to ethnic (or tribal) groups rather than governments. Americans tend to identify nationhood with loyalty to a system of laws. So you can argue all you want about ethnic Russians living in various areas of Ukraine or the Baltic countries, but, as far as I am concerned, they aren't really Russians. They are citizens of the countries they live in, regardless of ethnicity and dominant language. I do think that Ukraine was wrong to try to suppress the Russian language, but Putin himself has actually helped Ukrainian nationalists to promote the Ukrainian language. A lot of Russian-dominant speakers (for example, Zelensky himself) now regularly struggle to learn and use Ukrainian.

How easy would it have been for the neocons to provoke Putin considering how trigger happy he is?

Nobody was trying to provoke Putin. It was his choice to invade Ukraine out of a fit of pique and deranged revanchist hatred of Ukraine's independent status as a nation. NATO was actually struggling to maintain a reason for its existence before Putin changed everything, because Russia had ceased to be perceived as a threat to regional peace and stability in the 1990s. Putin didn't seem so bad at first, but he couldn't help but try to pursue his warped vision of a reconstituted Russian Empire with him its "benevolent tsar". The reason NATO experienced such a revival is that he was following a pattern that former Warsaw Pact members expected. Ukraine was being slow-walked into the alliance because the NATO nations did not want to provoke him. After his revanchist invasion and subsequent revival of hostilities in 2022, he singlehandedly elevated NATO to an essential alliance.

How much taxpayers money has exchanged hands as munitions are sent overseas since this attack, about one hundred and fifty billion so far?

Pretty much all of that money is funneled back into the US economy, creating lots and lots of jobs. The war itself has caused a lot of inflation, but much of that has to do with the loss of Russian energy supplies and Ukrainian agricultural products. not the cost of increased jobs in the defense industries. The military-industrial complex loves this war.

How easy would it be for corporate news to inform the public that this was an unprovoked attack by Russia?

Its easy for them to inform the public of whatever they please, since that's what they do for a living. It happens that this was a totally unprovoked attack by Russia, since Russia was not itself under attack. That's why Putin had to start the invasion of Crimea with anonymous "little green men" that hid their national affiliations. He had no detectable casus belli except his own paranoia. Eventually, of course, he couldn't maintain the fiction, so then he came up with his "One People" manifesto about all of those poor oppressed ethnic Russians that wanted to become part of Russia--exactly the kind of tactic that Hitler used initially to justify his own aggression in Austria and Czechoslovakia.

 

[Copernicus]

What Unsupported silliness ? .. Told you before about the Azov Nazi .. and anyone knows anything about the Ukraine conflict has heard of them .. do you not recognize the Logo ?

View attachment 81509

...

What rubbish. There are neo-Nazi Hitler admirers and bigots in both militaries, including the vaunted "Wagner Group", named after Utkin's nom de guerre call sign--Hitler's favorite composer. The Azov Battalion, like the Wagner Group, does not adhere to any specific Nazi doctrine.

 

[Sargonski]

I don't spout or make excuses for propaganda of any sort thanks and frankly, this post of yours is as garbled as it gets.

If you knew what you were saying was propaganda .. it would not be very good propaganda now would it ? Did you not realize you are rooting for Team Azov ? aka Azov Nazi Battallion .. a step up from when they were lowly State Sanctioned Terrorist Militia .. persecuting the Ethnic Russians .. who they dehumanized in typical Nazi Fashion .. abuse and persecution and worse continued after civil war broke out in 2014 ..

Do you not remember the Nazi Storm Troopers in the early days ?? did they not do that comparison for you on CNN Brother Art ? ... ayeeee .. don't tell me that there was a Sin .. Is that the problem here .. That old Sin .. cometh in .. and tricked all the rabbits ... called the "Sin of Omission" .. eeeeyyyyoooochi ..

Now I hope this is a bit less garbled for you .. tried to "tone" it down as best I could .. cause you know its not like we in the hood .. for Good ...

Time to take that Hood off friend .. Let the Enlightenment in .. Garble no more .. on the floor .. with the hurtebutt fo shore

 

[Sargonski]

What rubbish. There are neo-Nazi Hitler admirers and bigots in both militaries, including the vaunted "Wagner Group", named after Utkin's nom de guerre call sign--Hitler's favorite composer. The Azov Battalion, like the Wagner Group, does not adhere to any specific Nazi doctrine.

First you say there are no Hitler Admirers .. then you claim there are bigots on both sides .. the bigots being the Hitler Admirers .. the "Neo Nazi" part meaning they don't worshp HItler directly .. but indirectly through his minions .. lovers of the Ideology. so you have contradiccted yourself in your first sentence.. followed by false claims about not adhering to Nazi Doctrine .. in other words .. not being right wing neo Nazi Extremists .. as Stated by Congress .. which kind of makes what you have been saying the "What Rubbish" in the room

Congress Brother Copper -- now don't go all winky on my and start claiming that Congress was spouting Russian Propaganda .. as the Prog Blue Cancel Culture likes to do .. Tulsi Gabbard is a Russian Spy as well don't ya know .. Cause Hillary Kankles said so.

Talking the US Congress here mate .. you needing a reference or anything .... go there .. and tell them of their "Rubbish" Oh .. Ohh Oh Look Copper .. there is one of Biden's latest Proxy JV -Team pictured below .. . but thats no Nazi symbol right Copper .. nothing to see here ?? no Nazi Admiration going on here ... just a bunch of good ol boys that Congress don't like for some reason .. so labeled them Nazi's and sanctioned the bad guys cause they were bad guys though .. not Nazi Bad guys .. like your friend below

Recognize one of your Lads there Copper ? -- maybe you can find a few Russian Criminals in the Wagner group with similar .. ya never know .. but Congress didn't sanction those Nazi's .. they sanctioned the Ukrainian ones .. in 2018 .. in recognition of the Dirty Deeds .. persecution of the Ethnic Russians .. war crimes .. 14,000 civilians killed . but but,,, Whats this Brother Copper .. CNN not tell you this ? committed that Old "Sin of Omission" once again.

 

[Stevicus]

My premise is this: I love American people. I love American commoners.

A lot of us commoners have become common taters. We common tate on just about everything.

But I would like Americans to understand this: why is my country is the most Russophile in Western Europe?
Because they admire great leaders like Putin, especially after Nine Eleven.

I would have thought there'd be mixed opinions, much as what one might find in America or elsewhere in the world. Even within Russia, opinions on Putin seem mixed, even if they have to remain somewhat muted on it.

Nine Eleven happened because evidently America's political correctness and sometimes laxness made those hijackers enter the country and do what they did.
In Russia it didn't happen and it could never happen because they have intelligence services (like the modern KGB) that monitor anything and anyone.
My compatriots prefer a strong leader that inspire national security and patriotism.

They've had terrorist attacks in Russia in the past. America has had quite a bit of domestic terrorism in its history, but terrorism from foreign sources was relatively new in the 1990s when the first WTC bombing took place. 9/11 was a surprise attack which caught America off-guard, although that has had some side effects in the aftermath, particularly in the areas of national security and patriotism - which has gone into some strange directions as of late.

I don't know if it was due to political correctness. 9/11 ostensibly happened because the people who perpetrated that act came from an area of the world where the US and its military forces were playing around in their backyard. Our militarism and interventionism in that region has produced a great deal of volcanic resentment among many people there. Some governments over there seem to like us, but our policies still seem to bother a lot of folks in that general region.

As for the intelligence services, who can say? The Soviets turned out to be crafty spymasters. Much has been said about the US intelligence services - CIA, FBI, NSA, DHS, etc. - both positive and negative. Of course, there are other global intelligence agencies which are allied with the U.S. I'm sure they cooperate and provide some help, although it's hard to say if they can all be trusted. Even our own government employees might be susceptible to being bought or blackmailed by some foreign intelligence agency (or private entity).

I remember a line from the movie S*P*Y*S from 1974, which was a parody of CIA agents operating in Paris. One of the CIA agents is mad because he thought his boss was trying to kill him, as he narrowly escaped a bomb explosion. His boss countered, "How do you know it was us?"

"Technique. The Chinese are quiet, right? The Russians are quick, and we're sloppy. And it was a sloppy job, Martinson!"

Of course at that time, it was during the Watergate/Vietnam era, and public opinion on the CIA was pretty low. Portraying the spies on "our" side as bumbling fools was a popular trope. "Get Smart" was another spy parody, with a recurring theme of Max and the Chief getting stuck in the Cone of Silence. Spy stories are also rather compelling.

 

[Copernicus]

First you say there are no Hitler Admirers .. then you claim there are bigots on both sides .. the bigots being the Hitler Admirers .. the "Neo Nazi" part meaning they don't worshp HItler directly .. but indirectly through his minions .. lovers of the Ideology. so you have contradiccted yourself in your first sentence.. followed by false claims about not adhering to Nazi Doctrine .. in other words .. not being right wing neo Nazi Extremists .. as Stated by Congress .. which kind of makes what you have been saying the "What Rubbish" in the room

No, you completely distorted what I wrote, because you either weren't able to process it or you just wanted to respond to what you wish I had written. For example, I never said there "are no Hitler admirers". There are bigots in every country, every government, every military, etc. It's almost as if I was saying that individual human beings can be prejudiced. Some more than others. Do you disagree? That doesn't mean that some group they belong to shares their outlook or philosophy. The rest of your post isn't worth a response, but it would help if you responded to what I actually said rather than spout memes generated by Russian and/or rightwing propaganda mills.

 

[Arthur Brain]

If you knew what you were saying was propaganda .. it would not be very good propaganda now would it ? Did you not realize you are rooting for Team Azov ? aka Azov Nazi Battallion .. a step up from when they were lowly State Sanctioned Terrorist Militia .. persecuting the Ethnic Russians .. who they dehumanized in typical Nazi Fashion .. abuse and persecution and worse continued after civil war broke out in 2014 ..

Do you not remember the Nazi Storm Troopers in the early days ?? did they not do that comparison for you on CNN Brother Art ? ... ayeeee .. don't tell me that there was a Sin .. Is that the problem here .. That old Sin .. cometh in .. and tricked all the rabbits ... called the "Sin of Omission" .. eeeeyyyyoooochi ..

Now I hope this is a bit less garbled for you .. tried to "tone" it down as best I could .. cause you know its not like we in the hood .. for Good ...

Time to take that Hood off friend .. Let the Enlightenment in .. Garble no more .. on the floor .. with the hurtebutt fo shore

Okay, that was more of the garbled and poorly formatted same then. Noted.

 

[Arthur Brain]

No, you completely distorted what you wrote, because you either weren't able to process it or you just wanted to respond to what you wish I had written. For example, I never said there "are no Hitler admirers". There are bigots in every country, every government, every military, etc. It's almost as if I was saying that individual human beings can be prejudiced. Some more than others. Do you disagree? The rest of your post isn't worth a response, but it would help if you responded to what I actually said rather than spout memes generated by Russian and/or rightwing propaganda mills.

Exactly, there's extremist prejudicial and bigoted elements in any given country.

 

[lukethethird]

What rubbish. There are neo-Nazi Hitler admirers and bigots in both militaries, including the vaunted "Wagner Group", named after Utkin's nom de guerre call sign--Hitler's favorite composer. The Azov Battalion, like the Wagner Group, does not adhere to any specific Nazi doctrine.

Regarding the Azov Battalion among others, a cursory online search will provide information to the contrary due to a long history:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/ukraine-divided-over-legacy-of-nazi-fighters/​