Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Yup. And in this situation Ukraine has everything to gain with only its life to lose while the gains for Putin have been minimal as the losses keep adding up and piling on.
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Tucker Carlson, Colonel Douglas Macgregor, The Ukraine War
- Thread starter Colt
- Start date
There did appear to be an early attempt to grab Kyiv, when that long armored column ended up getting stuck. That seemed like an ill-fated operation. It just didn't seem they had enough force to take all of Ukraine all at once. Plus, the internal rot and corruption within the Russian government and military was laid bare, as the kleptocracy practically gutted their armed forces and hobbled their war-making capability.
I don't know how much planning they put into it, nor what it was that caused them to move at the time they did. The way it came about, it almost seemed like an impulsive, panicky maneuver, as it didn't appear to reflect any careful, calculated, long-term planning.
Whether he may have been goaded or provoked into attacking is hard to say, but by invading Ukraine and engaging in aggressive warfare, he has violated international agreements (Kellogg-Briand Pact) and the UN Charter. Despite whatever reason there might be for doing so, at least when looking from an international legalistic viewpoint, he broke the law and violated international convention.
It was different with the U.S. against Iraq, the West could easily justify their position because Iraq also engaged in aggressive invasion against Kuwait, so the U.S. could easily justify an attack on Iraq in the eyes of the UN and world community. In 1991, when Iraq agreed to pull out of Kuwait, the U.S. agreed to a ceasefire which lasted until 2003. Some people (including the aforementioned Col. MacGregor) were critical of the U.S. disengaging in 1991 and felt they should have gone all the way to Baghdad right then and there. If nothing else, it would have saved America the trouble of going back there in 2003.
Sometimes, it's hard to fathom how the minds of U.S. policymakers actually work. Even if we assume that they are good-hearted and have the best of intentions (which they don't), the problem they're facing is that, however well-intentioned their motives might be in "helping" other countries, they invariably get intimately involved in the intrigue and internecine rivalries of whatever country or government they're working with.
If we're going to set ourselves up as some kind of righteous, international policing authority, then that would still require a certain degree of detachment and objectivity. When police officers lose objectivity and get personally involved in a case, then that's a breach of professional ethics. It seems it would be no different on the international stage - except the stakes for failure are much higher.
In a way, that's how the West's approach has developed regarding Ukraine and Russia. Legally, the borders were established when Ukraine was a Soviet Socialist Republic, and the USSR established the boundaries of that Republic. When the Soviet Union dissolved and every Republic legally seceded, then what was once the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic then became part of a newly independent Ukraine. If I recall correctly, Russia and Ukraine signed an agreement in 1994 confirming and recognizing those boundaries as valid. One could argue that, if the Russians had any misgivings about the borders, that would have been the time to bring it up and voice their concerns. They didn't do that, so in the eyes of the West, that agreement has the force of international law.
So, in the West's eyes, they see it as an open-and-shut case, with Putin being declared the guilty party who should be arrested and put on trial before an international tribunal. At least from that standpoint, Putin is as guilty as a cat in a goldfish bowl.
Of course, such a view might be seen as too Western-centric and doesn't really take into consideration the root causes and the long-term historical circumstances. Maybe some mistakes were made in the early 1990s and the Russians felt they got cheated. Perhaps some buyer's remorse that could have been addressed sooner. There's also been apparently a great deal of bad blood and resentment built up between Russians and Ukrainians which have their roots going back centuries. I think if more people took the time to understand the history of the region, it would be a lot easier to understand why the Russians see the world as they do.
We Never Know
No Slack
Lmao! I didnt say anythung.
Read the post I replied to and see if you can figure out why I posted that post.
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We Never Know
No Slack
Already addressed why.
Economics was definitely a factor -- more specifically "The Energy War" - which arguably has been the reason for many other conflicts .. Syria the most recent victim.
and to add more fuel to this fire .. the "Separatist Regions" those which are Ethnically Russian that Putin now controls is responsible for over 80% of Ukraines GNP. the Last piece of value Odesa is also Ethnically Russian .. the last corridor to the Black Sea .. Ukraine is reduced to almost no value .. will be a Zombie nation .. not that it wasn't prior to the conflict in some respects already .. a mafia state full of right wing Extremists .. but even more so.
This however was not the only reason .. and may not have been the main one .. nor the straw that broke Camel's back -- "Prior" to the blowing up of the Nord. Now Russia is going to take those lovely fields as compensation - and wonderfull compensation it is .. After this war is over .. Russia will again be a big Energy Supplier to the EU.
Joining NATO is not so much an issue... it is putting Nuclear capable weapons on Russian Borders of NATO nations that has been angering the Russians... and in terms of Ukraine .. after the coup and installation of Pro Western Gov't - there was a real threat of NATO Ships Docking in Crimea .. and that was never going to be allowed . .. the Svestopol Port been in under Russian Control for 400 years .. is a vital strategic interest.. Ukraine will eat a nuke prior to taking Crimea ... since 2014 is considered "The Homeland" .. part of Mother Russia .. and will not be lost .... end of story .. and the West knows it .. hence why they restrict Ukraine Weapons and give them rules by which they can not win the war. How are you going to weaken Russia if you can't attack Russia with your Western Wonder Weapons .. who can win such a war ?
Its not like Crimea was ever part of Ukraine to begin with .. the place is all Russians .. and Russia had a 100 year lease .. they basically owned it anyway .. in all but name ... and now thy own it in name .. with more comming after Ukraine runs out of Bodies .. and they are already running low... Azov SS press gangs going around forcing teenage lads and old men into service at gun point ... it is just a matter of attrition... and Ukraine is not strong in the human capital department .. half the country left shortly after the war started .. they were ready to go .. knew what was comming .. population of 36 million down to 18 million -- Call it 9 million Males .. 15% of which are legiimately capable of Soldier .. gives us say 1.5 million .. rounding up.. and estimates so far of around 1 million casualties (killed and wounded) Which leaves Ukraine scrapping the bottom of the Barrel even in the rosy scenario.
In the real world the ones that are left do not want to fight ... looking to hide, escape or just surrenduring to the Russians .. The Front line is a "Meat Grinder" .. life expectancy in hours .. worse than WW1 .. this is a new kind of warfare .. the Clone wars have begun.
If nothing else ... this war has been a fantastic arms show .. gonna be big business outfitting all the nations of the world with the latest technology .. now readily available to anyone with Cash .... and I mean everyone literally .. the Drug Cartels .. Terrorist Groups .. getting their hands on some very sophisticated technology .. Look for an increase in major 911 style terrorist attacks on nation states.. except this time -.... don't need to hijack any planes .. just outfit one or a number of drones with explosives and Bob's your Uncle.
ImmortalFlame
Woke gremlin
Riiiiiight. What were you trying to say, then?
ImmortalFlame
Woke gremlin
I don't think you've addressed much of anything.
We Never Know
No Slack
Good grief!! If you hadn't quote mined that posr and followed what it said I'm sure you can figure it out. Lets try again..
"Read the post I replied to and see if you can figure out why I posted that post"
ImmortalFlame
Woke gremlin
Do you have a source for this?
We Never Know
No Slack
Lol. Get up on the wrongs side of bed? Not had your coffee? Or just in the mood to accuse and gripe
ImmortalFlame
Woke gremlin
Not a quote mine. I quoted you in full.
Let's try again: what was your point, then, if not to imply that the Russian invasion was somehow provoked?
ImmortalFlame
Woke gremlin
Nope, just being honest. You're quick to decry us "warmongers" for wanting to "prolong the war" by supporting providing weapons to Ukraine, but you utterly fail to provide any actual alternative or principled stance that wouldn't condemn Ukraine to being totally militarily occupied.
So, tell me, what's your solution to this war?
We Never Know
No Slack
Already addressed.
ImmortalFlame
Woke gremlin
You really haven't. I asked you repeatedly for an alternative and you kept insisting you didn't have one. Which is as good as admitting you have no idea what you're talking about and just want to feel superior to other people.
"You warmongers just want to prolong this war by supporting Ukraine with weapons! We should be trying to end the war!"
"Cool. How do we do that?"
"Well, uh, start peace negotiations."
"They tried that. Putin is refusing negotiations without being given land."
"Well... uh... we shouldn't be prolonging the war by funding Ukraine, anyway!"
"Why not? Shouldn't Ukraine have the ability to repel an invading force?"
"Er, I guess, but... What we're doing is still wrong because war is bad!"
"Okay. So, what's the alternative?"
"Huh?"
"What's the alternative?"
"Er... I dunno. Why would I know? I have no idea idea. Leave me alone!"
We Never Know
No Slack
ImmortalFlame
Woke gremlin
Literally, the definition of a quote mine is to remove context from a quote deliberately to obscure its intent and meaning. I didn't. I quoted your post in full.
You gonna retract your allegation?
anna.
colors your eyes with what's not there
Energy resources are a sidebar to the main goal: empire building. Or in Putin's mind: empire rebuilding. Here he is in his own words, comparing himself to Peter the Great, which Ukraine understood at the time as Putin intended it to be understood:
Peter the Great waged the Great Northern War for 21 years. On the face of it, he was at war with Sweden taking something away from it… He was not taking away anything, he was returning. This is how it was. The areas around Lake Ladoga, where St Petersburg was founded. When he founded the new capital, none of the European countries recognised this territory as part of Russia; everyone recognised it as part of Sweden. However, from time immemorial, the Slavs lived there along with the Finno-Ugric peoples, and this territory was under Russia’s control. The same is true of the western direction, Narva and his first campaigns. Why would he go there? He was returning and reinforcing, that is what he was doing.
Clearly, it fell to our lot to return and reinforce as well. And if we operate on the premise that these basic values constitute the basis of our existence, we will certainly succeed in achieving our goals.
We Never Know
No Slack
This was the first post..
"Lmao! Read the post I replied to and see if you can figure out why I posted that post.
This was edited in..
"I didnt say anythung"
Can you figure out what part you took out? Try again lol
ImmortalFlame
Woke gremlin
Ahhhh, so you're referring to the SECOND post, not the first. Gotcha.
Still not a quote mine. I didn't remove context to deliberately mislead people as to what you said.
You could have explained this much better earlier if you had actually tried rather than desperately rattling your little sabre. Still, mistake was mine. I thought you were referring to the post in which you posted the Wiki article about Ukraine-NATO relations.
In either case, your allegation was false. Not a quote mine. When are you going to apologise?
We Never Know
No Slack
Good day