Tucker Carlson, Colonel Douglas Macgregor, The Ukraine War

[Sargonski]

And that is a hasty generalization fallacy. Just because one is cheering on the Ukraine does not mean that one is cheering for the Nazi sympathizers that are on the same side.

The prosecutors against the various January 6th insurrectionists did not call all of them "Proud Boys" just because they were a significant part of that action. They were all prosecuted on their own merits. Sometimes an action is justified, such as Ukraine's opposition to an invasion and our assisting them. Sometimes it is not. Such as the attempted coup.. One does not judge an action solely based upon who is supporting it.

In part you are correct ... which points out the guilt by association fallacy as well... so when you have the progressive Blue cancel culture clowns .. calling Tulsi Gabbard a Russian Asset .. Pootin Stooge .. for being anti War that is the fallacy you are talking about right ? Which was my point so thanks for getting it .. as it is the modus operandi of 90% of the Azov Nazi Side

One can be rooting for Ukraine .. and not rooting for the Nazi .. however .. if you are rooting for Ukraine.. you are rooting for the Nazi side .. or perhaps better put .. losing the demonization lingo .. The Side that engaged in Nazi like atrocity.

Let us not forget that this is not war .. but a "Special Denazification Operation" and my saying this .. does not make me a Stalin Sympathizer .. just telling you the name of the mission .. don't shoot the messenger.

Your Jan 6 analogy is poor .. the problem with the "Insurrection" .. was labeling "ALL" the protestors and anyone affiliated with the protest "Domestic Terrorists" .. violating the Rule of Law and Judicial rules and proceedure ....

Setting a precedent .. now we have the Cop City protesters being classified "Domestic Terrorists" giving the State power to sodomize these dissenters but good.

 

[lukethethird]

Come on you guys, what happened to Yugoslavia?

 

[Estro Felino]

In fairness, the whole reason Europe stayed peaceful was because it was under control of two major factions who were prepared for war, but neither side wanted to be the first to fire the first shot. However, just because there weren't wars in Europe didn't mean that Europeans weren't still involved in war to some degree, some of the same wars fought by Americans.

I do respect this opinion, but I don't think it's true. Also because in Italy there was the strongest Communist Party of the West, the PCI, directly funded by Moscow. For decades the Christian Democracy, the US-funded party had governed, until a Socialist PM, Craxi was elected in 1983. How? Socialists and Christian-Democrats allied and made him PM.
I think that the Cold War was between USA and USSR only.
This war too...it's a war between USA and Russia only....and is fought in Ukraine.

 

[Estro Felino]

In part you are correct ... which points out the guilt by association fallacy as well... so when you have the progressive Blue cancel culture clowns .. calling Tulsi Gabbard a Russian Asset ..

Also this Italian lawyer...Simona Mangiante was accused of being a spy from Russia.
Indeed...Mangiante sounds Russkii. 100%

 

[Estro Felino]

Come on you guys, what happened to Yugoslavia?

Some say it was Wshington DC who ignited the conflict.
What is certain it wasn't Brussels.

 

[Subduction Zone]

What are you even talking about?

So you are not even paying attention to how people respond to you. Great You keep sinking your own arguments by doing so.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I just answered your question.
Russia is winning... good. All that matters is that this horrific war is over.
Thank you for the question.

No you didn't, and what makes you think that "Russia is winning"? I would be just as wrong if I claimed that "Ukraine is winning". One very good reason to support the Ukraine, besides their obvious right to self rule, is that Russia appears to have dreams of its old hegemony. They have attacked the Ukraine twice now in a territory grab. They have attacked Georgia (no, not the US Georgia):

Russo-Georgian War - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

They have tired to control Moldova:

https://www.usip.org/publications/2023/07/ukraines-edge-russia-presses-hybrid-war-tiny-moldova.

The European countries bordering Russia appear to be all quite worried about Russia's dreams of the past. Do you think that they will stop with the Ukraine? They had no reason to attack. They have no business to be there. You appear to be willing to give away any neighboring country as long as your not attacked. Hmm, I heard some of those our Canadian posters say bad things about the US. Perhaps we should attack them and grab some new territory. It appears to be fine according to you and other Russian apologists.

 

[Estro Felino]

No you didn't, and what makes you think that "Russia is winning"? I would be just as wrong if I claimed that "Ukraine is winning". One very good reason to support the Ukraine, besides their obvious right to self rule, is that Russia appears to have dreams of its old hegemony. They have attacked the Ukraine twice now in a territory grab. They have attacked Georgia (no, not the US Georgia):

Russo-Georgian War - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

They have tired to control Moldova:

https://www.usip.org/publications/2023/07/ukraines-edge-russia-presses-hybrid-war-tiny-moldova.

The European countries bordering Russia appear to be all quite worried about Russia's dreams of the past. Do you think that they will stop with the Ukraine? They had no reason to attack. They have no business to be there. You appear to be willing to give away any neighboring country as long as your not attacked. Hmm, I heard some of those our Canadian posters say bad things about the US. Perhaps we should attack them and grab some new territory. It appears to be fine according to you and other Russian apologists.

You surely do have a point.
Just one question: don't you think it's the EU which should handle the situation alone, without American interference?
I mean Brussels says the situation is under control. Putin just wanted to conquer those four regions and is not going forward.
Thank you in advance.

 

[Subduction Zone]

In part you are correct ... which points out the guilt by association fallacy as well... so when you have the progressive Blue cancel culture clowns .. calling Tulsi Gabbard a Russian Asset .. Pootin Stooge .. for being anti War that is the fallacy you are talking about right ? Which was my point so thanks for getting it .. as it is the modus operandi of 90% of the Azov Nazi Side

One can be rooting for Ukraine .. and not rooting for the Nazi .. however .. if you are rooting for Ukraine.. you are rooting for the Nazi side .. or perhaps better put .. losing the demonization lingo .. The Side that engaged in Nazi like atrocity.

Let us not forget that this is not war .. but a "Special Denazification Operation" and my saying this .. does not make me a Stalin Sympathizer .. just telling you the name of the mission .. don't shoot the messenger.

Your Jan 6 analogy is poor .. the problem with the "Insurrection" .. was labeling "ALL" the protestors and anyone affiliated with the protest "Domestic Terrorists" .. violating the Rule of Law and Judicial rules and proceedure ....

Setting a precedent .. now we have the Cop City protesters being classified "Domestic Terrorists" giving the State power to sodomize these dissenters but good.

We are talking what is a bit dated history wise. Russia's earlier attacks on Ukraine exacerbated the existence of neo-Nazis in part of the country. Many of them were incorporated into the armed forces since they were a useful source of troops. And that also diluted their strength as neo-Nazis. The US often does the same. Quite a few racists end up in the armed forces but have to train and fight along with members of other races. How would you suggest that they deal with such a problem? Letting them go on their own would only make the problem worse. And it would have been worse for the country too. Make them part of the greater whole and they are more likely to drop their neo-Nazi attitudes just as integrated US troops end up dropping many of their racist attitudes. It is not perfect for either, but it is better than leaving problems to fester and grow within a country.

Commentary: Ukraine’s neo-Nazi problem

As Ukraine's struggle against Russia and its proxies continues, Kiev must also contend with a growing problem behind the front lines: far-right vigilantes who are willing to use intimidation and even violence to advance their agendas, and who often do so with the tacit approval of law...

www.reuters.com

You are merely looking for weak excuses to support Russia. It does not work. In the US are all antifa also anarchists? The anarchists often ride on the coattails of antifa protesters. There are I am sure non-violent antifa protesters. Anarchists often use them as a cover. If I called all antifa anarchists and opposed them on that basis I would be as wrong as you are about the Ukraine.

 

[Subduction Zone]

You surely do have a point.
Just one question: don't you think it's the EU which should handle the situation alone, without American interference?
I mean Brussels says the situation is under control. Putin just wanted to conquer those four regions and is not going forward.
Thank you in advance.

Do they make that claim? I have my doubts. The sources that I can find seem to disagree:

European public opinion remains supportive of Ukraine

Public support for Ukraine is holding up in allied countries, but preparations should be made for scenarios in which support ebbs away.

www.bruegel.org

And I would not exactly call giving aid "interference". It is rather mild interference to say the least.

 

[Estro Felino]

Do they make that claim? I have my doubts. The sources that I can find seem to disagree:

European public opinion remains supportive of Ukraine

Public support for Ukraine is holding up in allied countries, but preparations should be made for scenarios in which support ebbs away.

www.bruegel.org

And I would not exactly call giving aid "interference". It is rather mild interference to say the least.

The EU accepted Ukraine's candidacy to the EU.
It means that characters like Zelenskij, oligarchs and undemocratic apparatuses will have to quit Ukraine, if the country desires to meet the EU standards and become a EU state.
Nowadays Ukraine looks like a Russia in miniature, as for democracy and freedom of speech.

 

[Tomef]

Yes you have .. what a goombah .. you said the inverview was lies .. and Doug is the fellow being interviewed ... you said the war narrative media coverage was a lie .. it is Dougs assessment of the media that is given in the interview.

Get on the right page Brother Tom -- or at least the right Book .. figure out what it is you are addressing .. and what you are saying.

It’s all pretty clear, you’re just avoiding the point. No surprise there. I’m yet to meet a single TC follower capable of questioning the narrative. Where in any of my posts did I say anything ’Doug’ as you call him, or about the interview? Please quote whatever it is you think I said.

 

[Sargonski]

It’s all pretty clear, you’re just avoiding the point. No surprise there. I’m yet to meet a single TC follower capable of questioning the narrative. Where in any of my posts did I say anything ’Doug’ as you call him, or about the interview? Please quote whatever it is you think I said.

You jumped in to a conversation about MacGreggor's war Narrative crying out that that the narrative being presented was false - "Lies" but did not come up with a single lie .... because in your mind the conversation was about tucker .. and/or you wished to engage in Ad Hom Fallacy but, the conversation is about Doug .. not Tuck .. you are on the wrong page .. the point you have demonstrated .. and this point has not been avoided .. and no one cares about your Ad Hom Fallacy points about Tucker .. Don't care ..not relevant .. was not the topic of discussion. .. and you have already said you have no points relating to Doug .. so you have no point.

 

[Sargonski]

Also this Italian lawyer...Simona Mangiante was accused of being a spy from Russia.
Indeed...Mangiante sounds Russkii. 100%

Was a rather large and extensive witch hunt.. using state resources .. CIA was sent stooges to try to set Papadopolous up .. was a disgusting display of illegitimate use of State Power and authority. Good looking wife though

 

[Stevicus]

I do respect this opinion, but I don't think it's true. Also because in Italy there was the strongest Communist Party of the West, the PCI, directly funded by Moscow. For decades the Christian Democracy, the US-funded party had governed, until a Socialist PM, Craxi was elected in 1983. How? Socialists and Christian-Democrats allied and made him PM.
I think that the Cold War was between USA and USSR only.

This war too...it's a war between USA and Russia only....and is fought in Ukraine.

I was mainly referring to the military activities of Britain and France, who maintained a military presence in other parts of the world. Italy has also participated in international operations: Italian Military Operations: Coping with Rising Threats and Declining US Leadership

As of March 2020, Rome deploys more than 7,300 troops abroad.[1] Italy is the second largest contributor to NATO’s out-of-area operations after the US, and the first European nation for deployments in UN peacekeeping missions.[2] Major Italian contingents operate in Lebanon, Iraq, Afghanistan, Kosovo, Libya, Niger and Somalia. As a whole, Italian armed forces are active in 24 countries across Europe, the greater Middle East and Africa, and Italy currently holds command roles in the international missions in Lebanon, Kosovo and Somalia.

Military history of Italy - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Post-war Italy adopted a republican constitution and became one of the founding members of the Western Bloc military alliance NATO (North Atlantic Treaty Organization) that was formed 4 April 1949 and remains a member as of 2019.

Multinational Force in Lebanon (1982–1984)

Gulf War (1990–1991)

NATO intervention in the Bosnian War (1992–1995)

Unified Task Force and United Nations Operation in Somalia II (1992–1995)

Operation Alba (1997)

Kosovo War (1999)

War in Afghanistan (2001–2021)

Multi-National Force – Iraq (2003–2006)

Multi-National Force – Lebanon (2006–present)

2011 military intervention in Libya

Deployments to Niger

 

[Sargonski]

You are merely looking for weak excuses to support Russia. It does not work. In the US are all antifa also anarchists? The anarchists often ride on the coattails of antifa protesters. There are I am sure non-violent antifa protesters. Anarchists often use them as a cover. If I called all antifa anarchists and opposed them on that basis I would be as wrong as you are about the Ukraine.

what a lame clown comment .. as soon as presented with info conflicting with the State Pablum Propaganda narrative .. you go running around crying "Russian Propagandist" .. Putin Stooge ... Like when Hillary called Tulsi Gabbard a Russian spy or some such thing for presenting the Truth..

State Sponsored Neo Nazi Militia were terrorizing and persecuting Ethnic Russians .. this ended up boiling over into Civil War after US backed coup which installed a Pro Western Gov't .. is just a statement of fact .. That Putin used this as part of his rational for going in .. just a statement of fact. It is called objective assessment of the situation .. and if reality conflicts with your fairy tale assessment .. its not the messenger's fault ... cry like a baby as you have ..demonizing and shooting the messenger because your necessary illusion apple cart is upset.

This war is horrible for "USA" .. ... so does that make you anti-American for your neocon position ? certainly by your logic you are 100% guilty of that and and far worse.

 

[Estro Felino]

I was mainly referring to the military activities of Britain and France, who maintained a military presence in other parts of the world. Italy has also participated in international operations: Italian Military Operations: Coping with Rising Threats and Declining US Leadership

Britain and France are much more autonomous militarily.
Being the Mediterranean Sea a strategically important geographical area for the NATO's safety, it's clear Italy has more duties. It has more military bases, and more NATO bases, often filled with American soldiers. That's why I don't see any difference between Italian soldiers and American soldiers: they are both dear to me. And both risk their own lives, every day.
These people died in useless wars that had nothing to do with NATO's commitment to guarantee world peace, and particularly in that area. Iraq is a name that evokes nightmares, thinking of the NATO soldiers who died there.

I wrote that thing about Nikki Haley's speech because she doesn't understand that diplomacy is much better than winning a war at any cost. There are diplomatic instruments that can make this war terminate today.
And I guess the colonel, in the video implicitly mentioned them.

But I cannot agree with Haley...I will agree with Ramaswamy. Or with Tulsi Gabbard. And with RFK Jr on the NATO's policies.

 

[lukethethird]

So you are not even paying attention to how people respond to you. Great You keep sinking your own arguments by doing so.

I am anti-war, I don't expect everyone to agree with me, but due to your false accusations I do not value your opinion or anything you have to say for that matter. Don't bother, you can expect a non response from me.

 

[Copernicus]

Enlighten me, then. What wars were fought in Europe after 1945?
France fought against Spain? Or UK fought against Germany?

Some wars I can think of after 1945 were the Vietnam War, fought by Americans, and the Iraqi War, fought by Americans.

The EU’s part in 70 years of peace in Europe | Letters

Letters: Precisely how does the more recent eastward expansion of the EU towards Moscow serve to reduce the tensions that might give rise to a third world war?

www.theguardian.com

Do you think that this is what the thread is about? The EU has not even been in existence for 80 years, so you weren't really talking about EU countries, were you? Italy is not that far from Kosovo, Serbia, Montenegro, and Croatia, is it? If you aren't just talking about the EU, but Europe, then try to remember that Ukraine and Russia are in Europe and are at war right now. And then you try to support your ridiculous claim with a few letters to the editor by readers of The Guardian? I gave you a long list of European conflicts, some of which were wars and invasions. If you are really interested in the history of Europe since WWII, crack open a history book and read it. And the next time you go criticizing the bellicose behavior of the US, consider the possibility that a lot of the stability in Europe over the past 80 years had something to do with America's role in rebuilding Europe after WWII and the establishment of the NATO defense alliance, which helped put an end to the incessant fighting between Turkey and Greece.

 

[Tomef]

You jumped in to a conversation about MacGreggor's war Narrative crying out that that the narrative being presented was false - "Lies" but did not come up with a single lie .... because in your mind the conversation was about tucker .. and/or you wished to engage in Ad Hom Fallacy but, the conversation is about Doug .. not Tuck .. you are on the wrong page .. the point you have demonstrated .. and this point has not been avoided .. and no one cares about your Ad Hom Fallacy points about Tucker .. Don't care ..not relevant .. was not the topic of discussion. .. and you have already said you have no points relating to Doug .. so you have no point.

Nope, I’m pointing out to you that if you can’t get past the most basic first steps how can you hope to engage in an adult conversation?

Carlson begins with a series of statements that are verifiably false. You’re frightened of checking them, because your whole mental universe is based on such commonly thrown around lies. Unless you can man up and deal with that, there’s simply no point in you trying to discuss anything more complex.