1) Do you know what the Minsk agreements are?
2) Do you know why Ukraine didn't respect them?
3) Do you think that Ukraine is 100% guiltless?
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Tucker Carlson, Colonel Douglas Macgregor, The Ukraine War
- Thread starter Colt
- Start date
1) Do you know what the Minsk agreements are?
2) Do you know why Ukraine didn't respect them?
3) Do you think that Ukraine is 100% guiltless?
I would tell this gentle lady:
Dearest...do we Europeans interfere with the geopolitics of the Caribbean Sea, and the Gulf of Mexico? Do we Europeans interfere with the geopolitics of the the Pacific Ocean?
No...we don't do that. We have never done that and we will never do that.
So let the EU handle the geopolitical situation in Europe, particularly in the Baltic Sea and in the Black Sea. Alone. Thank you.
Well, Europeans did do it in the past. That's why all the countries in the Americas speak European languages. And in the Pacific, just about every island was claimed by a European country at some point or another. America has since pre-empted European hegemony over the Caribbean and Gulf of Mexico, although the Pacific still has some French possessions and Commonwealth nations, so there's still a European presence there.
The U.S. has had a presence in Europe since WW2, when Hitler sent us an engraved invitation and said "Come to Europe and fight us!" It would have been rude of us to decline the invitation. At the end of that war, we stayed in order to defend the western half of Europe from the Soviet Bloc - as our government was constantly worried that they'd pour over the border in an all-out invasion of the West. The Soviet government was also worried about us possibly doing the same to them, leading to the 40-year standoff called the Cold War.
We probably could have pulled out of Europe when the Berlin Wall fell and the Warsaw Pact dissolved, but we then realized that having a large military force and bases in Europe was advantageous for operations in Africa and the Middle East. The Iraq War, Somalia - and then there was all that conflict in the former Yugoslavia. Talking to some people in that area of the world, I get the impression that the bombing of Belgrade was a significant turning point when opinion about America started to change (in a more negative direction). It also made China mad, since the Chinese embassy in Belgrade was damaged in that bombing.
These are things that Americans often don't pay much attention to or tend to forget about, but the rest of the world doesn't really forget. Americans tend to have short memories, short attention-spans, and that's how it's easy for certain narratives to take hold.
Throughout the last 80 years, the EU countries have been at perpetual peace with one another.
So I think we are very good at doing peace. And we can promote peace in Eastern Europe.
The question here is: does America love peace?
PS: whenever I say Europeans, I mean EU.
Copernicus
Industrial Strength Linguist
Of course. Do you?
They achieved some temporary ceasefires that allowed Ukraine and Russia to regroup. The agreements were fairly biased in favor of Russia, which claimed never to have been a party to them. Russia's position has always been that they were agreements between Ukraine and the Russian proxy self-declared governments of Donetsk and Luhansk. Russia, of course, never lifted a finger to comply with the requirement to withdraw foreign troops from those areas of occupied Ukraine. Why would they withdraw their troops, if they weren't part of the agreements? IOW, the agreements were a sham intended to force Ukraine to accept Russian occupation there.
3) Did Ukraine comply with them?
I expect you to answer these three questions thoroughly, and I kindly ask you not to avoid answering the questions.
Thank you
They complied with them as much as the other side, which is to say that neither side complied. Some of the conditions were quite impossible for Ukraine, so that was never going to happen. Zelensky, who took office after the agreements had been allegedly in effect, has declared that he considered them impossible to implement. The US government takes the position that they could serve as a possible basis for negotiation, but I don't believe that. An agreement of some kind will have to be reached with Putin's successor, since Putin's word no longer has any credibility. Territorial concessions might be possible by Ukraine in exchange for making Ukraine a full member of NATO. Ukraine needs some guarantee of its sovereignty, since the Budapest Memorandum agreed to by Russia failed so miserably under Putin's regime.
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Throughout the last 80 years, the EU countries have been at perpetual peace with one another.
So I think we are very good at doing peace. And we can promote peace in Eastern Europe.
The question here is: does America love peace?
PS: whenever I say Europeans, I mean EU.
Does America love peace? Good question. I recall back when many Americans were against the war in Vietnam and advocated peace, love, freedom, equality, and many other high-minded ideals. Although I also quickly realized that not everyone was on the same page in that regard. Nixon wanted "peace with honor," and later on, the slogan during the Reagan years was "peace through strength." It's the basic idea that if we show the world that we're strong enough and tough enough, no one will mess with us.
It's the old cowboy notion that you "don't go startin' any fights, but you finish 'em if you have to."
Arthur Brain
Member
"Spanked"? Oh, that's as impressive as claiming victory on a debate thread which is to say - not at all. The ignorance you have spouted on this thread only continues further sadly enough. Nobody who is condemning/criticizing Putin's invasion of Ukraine is cheering on a *Nazi side* and until you understand that then further engagement is pointless.
Copernicus
Industrial Strength Linguist
Throughout the last 80 years, the EU countries have been at perpetual peace with one another.
So I think we are very good at doing peace. And we can promote peace in Eastern Europe.
Here is a useful source for you:
List of conflicts in Europe
Ignoring the vast number of conflicts that preceded WWII, here are their ones that make the list during your period of "perpetual peace" in just the 20th century. Many of these were not full-fledged wars, but some were protracted and brutal. I have omitted the ones since 2000, but you should get the point. Europeans are not, and have never been, exceptionally peace-loving. The same is true of Americans and a great many other countries in our violent world.
- 1944–1956 Guerrilla war in the Baltic states
- 1945–1949 Greek Civil War
- 1946–1948 Corfu Channel incident
- 1947–1962 Romanian anti-communist resistance movement
- 1953 Uprising in East Germany
- 1955–1959 Cyprus Emergency
- 1956 Uprising in Poznań
- 1956 Hungarian Revolution
- 1956–1962 Operation Harvest
- 1958 First Cod War
- 1959–2011 Basque conflict
- 1967 Greek coup d'état
- 1968 Warsaw Pact invasion of Czechoslovakia
- 1968–1998 The Troubles
- 1970–1984 Unrest in Italy
- 1972–1973 Second Cod War
- 1974 Turkish invasion of Cyprus
- 1974 Carnation Revolution
- 1975 Coup of 25 November 1975
- 1975–1976 Third Cod War
- 1976–2016 Corsican conflict
- 1981 Spanish coup d'état attempt
- 1986 Evros River incident
- 1988–1994 First Nagorno-Karabakh War
- 1989–1995 Gagauzia conflict
- 1989 Romanian Revolution
- 1990 Log Revolution
- 1990–1991 Soviet attacks on Lithuanian border posts
- 1990–present Transnistria conflict
- 1990–1992 Transnistria War
- 1991 January Events
- 1991 The Barricades
- 1991–2001 Yugoslav Wars
- 1991 Ten-Day War
- 1991–1995 Croatian War of Independence
- 1992–1995 Bosnian War
- 1992–1994 Croat–Bosniak War
- 1998–1999 Kosovo War
- 1999–2001 Insurgency in the Preševo Valley
- 2001 2001 insurgency in Macedonia
- 1991–1992 Georgian war against Russo-Ossetian alliance
- 1991–1993 Georgian Civil War
- 1991–2017 Chechen–Russian conflict
- 1994 Battle of Grozny (November 1994)
- 1994–1996 First Chechen War
- 1999–2009 Second Chechen War
- 2009–2017 Insurgency in the North Caucasus
- 1992 East Prigorodny Conflict
- 1992–1993 War in Abkhazia
- 1993 1993 Cherbourg incident
- 1993 1993 Russian constitutional crisis
- 1995–1996 Imia/Kardak military crisis
- 1997–1998 Cyprus Missile Crisis
- 1997 Albanian civil war of 1997
- 1997–present Dissident Irish Republican campaign
- 1998 Six-Day War of Abkhazia
When you crunch the numbers properly .. looking at "Total Military Spending" vs "Defense Spending" in the 20 years since 911 .. we managed to throw away 10 Trillion dollars... or roughly 500 Billion/year on "The war on Terror" money that could have been spent on Infrastructure, technology, ramping up our economy to compete in the 3rd millenium --->>> but no .. threw that money down the toilet chasing desert rats with ak 47 around the desert.
Our return on investment -- we have now pretty much been formally booted out of the ME .. Russia - China will be rebuilding Iraq Iran Syria Yemen .. our Best Brother next to Israel El Saud .. now ditched the us for China .. along with the UAE entourage .. and well that makes sense since China is their best customer.
We have a Pay to Play system ... If you play.. along with the Donor Class .. you get paid, and everybody knows it .. and so what gets done .. is what the Donor class wants .. and the second biggest lobby group are the Defense Contractors .. Second only to big Pharma .. who thankfully guided us through the Pandemic .. authored our pandemic Policy ... right down to the Nazi Collectivist Utilitarian letter.
Sure .. from time to time you get a lone voice or two calling out this and that .. the Tulsi Gabbard's .. Rand and Ron Paul .. It is not easy to shoot the golden egg laying Goose .. would you be the one running against a heard of stampeding Bulls .. seeing what happened to the last guy .. "Tulsi Gabbard" got big hoofmarks on her head.. Hillary Kankles Clinton herself deemed Tulsi a Russian Operative.
Everyone points to that love voice and says "Look look ... we have free speech in this nation .. what a good system we have" .. that lone voice is then quickly drowned out by the cacophiny on the take .. and business as usual resumes.
Early on Zelenski wanted to negotiate (and in hindsight would have been the best) .. Biden and Boris begged Zelenski to to to war .. offering full support.. for as long as it takes .. the Full Backing of US-NATO .. but a year later we are running out of Ammo ..
didn't ramp up our production capacity for war like Russia did ...nor did the EU.. last I checked - "western sources" Russia was firing 40,000 a day .. Ukraine 2-3000 .. in an artillery war.
lukethethird
unknown member
I appreciate your explanation but I was being sarcastic about those things being radical, next time I will indicate that it's sarcasm.
lukethethird
unknown member
Absolutely, thanks, that is what I've been trying to get through but to no avail.
Roughly, no, and no. You seem to be arguing that these constitute grounds for a Russian military invasion of Ukraine. Is that correct? If so, can you name the specific actions by Ukraine that you think deserved the Russian response?
lukethethird
unknown member
I've heard this same characterization directed at Jews and aboriginals and other minorities, always a shame to hear it.
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Those re not wars between EU countries.
Please.
EU countries have been at peace for almost 80 years and they will be for more 80 years.
How many wars were the American soldiers forced to fight by their Holy Congress in those 80 years?
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
LOL! Your source lied. And then you tried to use a strawman argument. Now you are trying to imply racism in others while you defend imperialism.
You must own stock in manufacturers of irony meters.
Yes .. Spanked .. which is why your responses are so hurtebutt and obtuse. Just because you didn't realize the Azov Nazi Battalion is full of Nazi's .. but you are cheering for the Azov Nazi Battallion ... does not mean you are not Cheering for the Nazi side. Ignorance does not get you off the hook mate .. you are cheering for the Nazi side .. If you are cheering for the Ukrainian side .. the Biden Nazi JV Team.
U understand now ? The Azov Nazi's are Nazi's .... and you crying " I didn't know" does not change that fact.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
And that is a hasty generalization fallacy. Just because one is cheering on the Ukraine does not mean that one is cheering for the Nazi sympathizers that are on the same side.
The prosecutors against the various January 6th insurrectionists did not call all of them "Proud Boys" just because they were a significant part of that action. They were all prosecuted on their own merits. Sometimes an action is justified, such as Ukraine's opposition to an invasion and our assisting them. Sometimes it is not. Such as the attempted coup.. One does not judge an action solely based upon who is supporting it.
How many fallacies are we Europeans forced to hear from the US Party of War?
Just because we want the war to end today, it doesn't mean we side with Putin.
I don't side with him, I side with my country and with the EU institutions which have always sought to dissuade Russia with non-warlike means like sanctions and diplomacy.
lukethethird
unknown member
That's rich, who is lying here about my source lying? Show me the evidence.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Don't get butt hurt because Italy has not been a power since the days of Rome. This has nothing to do with the history of the US.How many fallacies are we Europeans forced to hear from the US Party of War?
Just because we want the war to end today, it doesn't mean we side with Putin.
I don't side with him, I side with my country and with the EU institutions which have always sought to dissuade Russia with non-warlike means like sanctions and diplomacy.