I want you to show your work. What might be "plainly obvious" to you, might in fact be logically inconsistent. I don't doubt that you believe what you're saying. But I suspect that what you believe might not hold up to logical scrutiny.
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UK PM Rishi Sunak: "A man is a man, and a woman is a woman, that's just common sense"
- Thread starter icehorse
- Start date
I want you to show your work. What might be "plainly obvious" to you, might in fact be logically inconsistent. I don't doubt that you believe what you're saying. But I suspect that what you believe might not hold up to logical scrutiny.
And I want you to answer the question I just asked.
If you genuinely don't have the ability to grasp why someone trans would find it prejudicial to tell them that they aren't who they say they are, no amount of tedious explanation met by obtuse answers is going to help.
MASSIVE STRAWMAN! Nobody in this thread and no claims recounted in this thread are saying that.
You need to demonstrate why saying "a man is a man" is logically the same as denying a person's gender identity.
So lay off the insults until you can make a fallacy free argument. You are being - in this thread - quite tedious.
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How is objecting to the idea that trans men are men not invalidating their gender identity? What is the point of saying it if not to do precisely that?
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nice dodge, ha ha
Orbit
I'm a planet
One word: disingenuous.
I have no need to dodge. I'm not going to walk through the obvious with you.
Again, I struggle to believe that you genuinely don't understand why it's offensive to say such a thing to a trans person. This is why you were called out from the beginning of the thread for not coming at this from a position of good faith.
If you had started the thread saying "Look, I realize that these sentiments by Sunak are probably offensive to some people, but let me explain why I support them," that would have at least demonstrated some self-awareness and transparency. Instead you're doing this pseudo-Socratic thing of playing coy and pretending you don't understand the obvious. That's what is making the conversation tedious.
I believe your logic is flawed. I suspect I know your arguments, but I do not want to put words into your mouth because that way lies futility.
If your logic is good, why all the evasive maneuvers? Pick another topic and ask me to explain why I believe what I believe and I'll be happy to oblige. You continue to claim "it's obvious". And you continue to claim you don't want to walk thru it. But you continue to rant at me, why is that?
For several days now you've had the opportunity to answer the question. Instead you choose to stand on the sideline and criticize? How very brave of you!
Arthur Brain
Member
Heck, I caught some of his 'rousing' speech at that joke of a Tory conference and I was actually surprised that he said what he did. Seems he's willing to court controversy for the sake of appearing *interesting* possibly. His interviews as regards HS2 were laughable beforehand. It'll likely count against him in the short and long term but the conservative's chance of winning the next election are remote so desperate measures perhaps to appeal to the party faithful?Rishi Sunak is a politician, not a medical expert stating a peer-reviewed position. His views don't override those of medical organizations.
Thankfully, the position of the NHS, which is one of the UK's leading medical authorities, follows medical consensus rather than political rhetoric:
Gender dysphoria - Treatment
Treatment for gender dysphoria aims to help people live the way they want to, in their preferred gender identity or as non-binary.www.nhs.uk
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Don't project. I've asked you to explain why you believe what you believe about this topic and that's been like pulling teeth. I wouldn't dare attempt another topic at this point.
I'm not going to tediously walk through why telling people they're not who they say they are is offensive to them so you can try to nitpick logic and semantic holes. You know it's offensive. This is the same reason I didn't go down the "Huh? Gorsh, what's conservative mean?" rabbit hole with you. You know. Acting obtuse isn't cute. It's annoying and old.
I'm not ranting at you.
As a matter of fact, I'm done here.
Again with the strawman arguments, you're nothing if not consistent.
I promise you that these are not inconsequential matters we're discussing. These ideas must stand up to scrutiny, sorry if you find that inconvenient, it's the nature of the beast.
As a bit of a tangent, if a person makes an unreasonable request of me, I don't care if they find my response "offensive". Offense is not given.
Totally predictable.
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all of which is relevant how?
Arthur Brain
Member
Oh I dunno...
Maybe I should have just typed out aardvark instead. Otherwise, crack on with whatever it is you're attempting to achieve with this.
the analysis proceeds apace
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Likely with an expectation and pressure to give sex.
Not necessarily. Yes, women are raised to have a higher emotional IQ, but there are some friendless women.
Doubtful as hormone treatment hasn't really been assiciated with changes in sexuality.
Not necessarily. Some women don't enjoy it at all, some women get stuck with a guy who can't please them amd leaves them unsatisfied (Italy has a problem with this), and some enjoy it just as much as men.
Your male mind would probably most likely not like it and youd find it difficult to enjoy and perform. Myself, even in my 20s I'd lose an erection during penetration. And that is a disaster for all involved.
Amd as you'd have a male mind you'd very likely develop gender dysphoria. You brain woukd expect certain things but those things wouldn't be there or happen. Like how transmen get something similar to phantom limb but with a penis that isn't there but their brain is wired such that it's a part of the configuration it expects. You'd also expect to see a male reflection amd have a male body but your brain wouldn't get that.
Guitar's Cry
Disciple of Pan
He is using the typical culture war talking points of:
-what is being taught in schools
-how the medical community uses tge terms "man and woman"
-"common sense" usage of "man and woman"
-being "bullied" into changing language
My thought is that if he is concerned about bullying he may want to consider the treatment of people historically and currently who have chosen to take on the social identity (gender) that is not the one people have felt should be "assigned" to them. Frankly, even suggesting that people ought to assert themselves into someone's biological characteristics in order to force a social identity on them is bullying behavior.
He feels bullied because societal treatment of a marginalized and traumatized community is changing. No one is forcing him to believe in it. Only treat folks in a civil manner even if you disagree with them. Let schools educate and promote civil behavior and let the medical community concern itself with biology separate from the social decisions of an individual.
Little Dragon
Well-Known Member
Certainly by strongly advocating for a cause, there will be an opposite reaction from those that strongly disagree. Such is the way of things. When I start blabbering on about the merits of socialism to my friends family and colleagues etc..the more vehemently I argue my case, the more invested and convicted my detractors become, with their counter arguments. It could be argued that this, conflict, damages the cause I am advocating. When feathers are ruffled and worldviews, assessed. However I think it's all part and parcel of the discussion.
Little Dragon
Well-Known Member
It's demeaning and dehumanizing, yet, I guess it's just biology and instinct. You can almost feel the intent emanating out of that gaze. Sometimes it's just creepy, other times, it's almost predatory.