UK PM Rishi Sunak: "A man is a man, and a woman is a woman, that's just common sense"

[Little Dragon]

My thought is that if he is concerned about bullying he may want to consider the treatment of people historically and currently who have chosen to take on the social identity (gender) that is not the one people have felt should be "assigned" to them. Frankly, even suggesting that people ought to assert themselves into someone's biological characteristics in order to force a social identity on them is bullying behavior.

Noice! To the point.

 

[icehorse]

He is using the typical culture war talking points of:

-what is being taught in schools
-how the medical community uses tge terms "man and woman"
-"common sense" usage of "man and woman"
-being "bullied" into changing language

My thought is that if he is concerned about bullying he may want to consider the treatment of people historically and currently who have chosen to take on the social identity (gender) that is not the one people have felt should be "assigned" to them. Frankly, even suggesting that people ought to assert themselves into someone's biological characteristics in order to force a social identity on them is bullying behavior.

He feels bullied because societal treatment of a marginalized and traumatized community is changing. No one is forcing him to believe in it. Only treat folks in a civil manner even if you disagree with them. Let schools educate and promote civil behavior and let the medical community concern itself with biology separate from the social decisions of an individual.

Did you get all of that out of the quote, or some larger context?

 

[Alien826]

Not necessarily. Some women don't enjoy it at all, some women get stuck with a guy who can't please them amd leaves them unsatisfied (Italy has a problem with this), and some enjoy it just as much as men.

Just my personal experience. I'd say that women have a greater capacity to enjoy sex. Why don't many show that? Lack of skill by men (women take longer to reach orgasm, and it's not just sticking it in and going up and down, foreplay is critical), indoctrination in childhood (sex is dirty!) and of course genuine variation.

As to the rest, it was all just supposition on my part. As it hasn't happened, I suggest that my guesses are as good as yours.

 

[Little Dragon]

Lack of skill by men (women take longer to reach orgasm, and it's not just sticking it in and going up and down, foreplay is critical)

Pressure as well, men most often make the mistake of not letting things take a natural course, slowly. When pressure is applied. that kills the romance dead. It's repelling to the other person involved, as they now feel like they are simply a means to an end, and could be a lifeless rubber doll, for all the pressuring person seems to care. It's not flattering...

 

[sayak83]

You've made sort of nested claims and questions here, so I will try to unpack them. If I make a mistake, I apologize, let me know how I misunderstood you:

- can you clarify or distinguish between "anatomical gender" and "physiological gender"?
- are you implying that gender is a biological term?
- are you saying that we must restrict our understanding to there being only two categories?

I am saying that I interpreted Sunak's sentence of "man is a man" and "woman is a woman" as denying the real existence of transgender categories (anatomical sex identity different from gender identity). Since you also say that you accept that transgender people exist, you also accept this to be true and hence disagree with Rishi Sunak on this, I would assume?
I will make no further comments on where gender identity comes from, where when or how they converge or diverge from anatomical sex of that person as I am not an expert into the topic. I will, once again ask you to consult the expert literature in that matter a few of whose links I have provided earlier.

 

[We Never Know]

I'll try. For the record I'm a heterosexual male.

My immediate reaction is "ewww", but in truth I don't know how I'd feel in such an extreme circumstance, and all this really only applies after I'd got over the anger at being so violated.

One thought is that you included "glands". I'm wondering if that might change my sexuality. Another notes that as an attractive woman I would certainly get more sex than I do now. I've also noted that women enjoy sex more than men do. That's not being flippant, if I could really adapt to it, then it might be OK. Hey, I could be a lesbian if I still preferred women sexually! (Just realized that you said my mind would be unaltered, but I would have female sensations during sex, who knows how that would interact with my "male" mind).

New paragraph for different thoughts. It's not all sexual. Socially, my life would be very different. Some things would be worse, like dealing with the worst aspects of men. Others might be better; women seem to have more friends and enjoy them more than men do. I wouldn't have to pay for meals out. The whole thing could be a great adventure.

Overall it's a difficult thing you put to me. If the whole thing were reversible, I'd give it a try I think.

I'm going to post this before I change my mind.

"Another notes that as an attractive woman I would certainly get more sex than I do now."

When I was young there was a saying about going to clubs/bars.....

Men look around and think who can I go home with tonight

Women look around and think who do I want to go home with tonight

That holds lots of truth.

 

[Little Dragon]

My immediate reaction is "ewww", but in truth I don't know how I'd feel in such an extreme circumstance, and all this really only applies after I'd got over the anger at being so violated.

You can only truly discover things about yourself through experience.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Just my personal experience. I'd say that women have a greater capacity to enjoy sex. Why don't many show that? Lack of skill by men (women take longer to reach orgasm, and it's not just sticking it in and going up and down, foreplay is critical), indoctrination in childhood (sex is dirty!) and of course genuine variation.

True, though the things you're getting at isn't so much gender (like making friends) but social expectations and adopted roles. Like how some guys believe they are better off being loners while some cam strike up conversations with anyone amd is very wealthy with friendships.

As to the rest, it was all just supposition on my part. As it hasn't happened, I suggest that my guesses are as good as yours.

I'm trans so I have somewhat of an idea of what it would be like. Just opposite directions.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

Did you get all of that out of the quote, or some larger context?

From the quote, but the quote must be interpreted according to the larger context.

 

[icehorse]

From the quote, but the quote must be interpreted according to the larger context.

Your concerns seem mostly to be from one side of the situation. Do you have any concerns when you look from the other side?

 

[icehorse]

I am saying that I interpreted Sunak's sentence of "man is a man" and "woman is a woman" as denying the real existence of transgender categories (anatomical sex identity different from gender identity). Since you also say that you accept that transgender people exist, you also accept this to be true and hence disagree with Rishi Sunak on this, I would assume?
I will make no further comments on where gender identity comes from, where when or how they converge or diverge from anatomical sex of that person as I am not an expert into the topic. I will, once again ask you to consult the expert literature in that matter a few of whose links I have provided earlier.

I'm confused by what you just said about anatomical sex vs gender identity. Can you clarify how you think of those two ideas in relationship to each other?

==

As for "expert literature", a couple of points:
- the medical concensus everyone claims isn't as unified as my opponents on RF claim.
- it's interesting to me that on this debate forum, this seems to be one of the few topics for which people appeal to authority

 

[Guitar's Cry]

Your concerns seem mostly to be from one side of the situation. Do you have any concerns when you look from the other side?

From the context of what this quote offers, maybe just that change is difficult, but I still don't see that as an excuse for demanding that a trans person conforms to what another person expects their social expression to be.

Even the educational piece I am not sure where the problem lies. A parent is very free to talk to educators about their concerns. Curriculums aren't hidden. Engage yourself in your kid's education.

 

[sayak83]

I'm confused by what you just said about anatomical sex vs gender identity. Can you clarify how you think of those two ideas in relationship to each other?

==

As for "expert literature", a couple of points:
- the medical concensus everyone claims isn't as unified as my opponents on RF claim.
- it's interesting to me that on this debate forum, this seems to be one of the few topics for which people appeal to authority

I always appeal to scientific authority when I believe that the topic is something that is in the purview of science. This may be cosmology, evolution, or Covid vaccine.

If you believe the science on this is still debated, then please post a thread for that with supporting scientific publications contesting whatever you believe is falsely given as medical consensus. That will be more constructive.

My opinions on these matter is not worth anything. I will accept whatever the scientific and medical consensus is on this matter.

 

[icehorse]

From the context of what this quote offers, maybe just that change is difficult, but I still don't see that as an excuse for demanding that a trans person conforms to what another person expects their social expression to be.

Even the educational piece I am not sure where the problem lies. A parent is very free to talk to educators about their concerns. Curriculums aren't hidden. Engage yourself in your kid's education.

Can you enumerate the demands that trans activists are putting on society? I'm not asking you to agree, I'm just wondering if you can see it from that perspective?

 

[icehorse]

I always appeal to scientific authority when I believe that the topic is something that is in the purview of science. This may be cosmology, evolution, or Covid vaccine.

If you believe the science on this is still debated, then please post a thread for that with supporting scientific publications contesting whatever you believe is falsely given as medical consensus. That will be more constructive.

My opinions on these matter is not worth anything. I will accept whatever the scientific and medical consensus is on this matter.

There are several ideas floating around on this thread at this point. Can you tell me which idea you want to see citations for?

And again, I'm confused by what you just said about anatomical sex vs gender identity. Can you clarify how you think of those two ideas in relationship to each other?

 

[Guitar's Cry]

Can you enumerate the demands that trans activists are putting on society? I'm not asking you to agree, I'm just wondering if you can see it from that perspective?

I think the demands are medical autonomy and civil and equitable treatment.

 

[icehorse]

I think the demands are medical autonomy and civil and equitable treatment.

Fair enough, but incomplete.

E.g., the claim that "a transwoman is a woman" is verging on becoming compelled speech. Can you see how that's another demand on society?

I'm all for medical autonomy (for adults), and for equitable treatment. But I think trans activist's ideas are often poorly thought out, and go way past the things you and I just agreed to. (understanding that we don't agree on everything)

BTW, I just want to say that I really appreciate the quality of the discussion we're having here!

 

[Guitar's Cry]

Fair enough, but incomplete.

E.g., the claim that "a transwoman is a woman" is verging on becoming compelled speech. Can you see how that's another demand on society?

Not really. Outside of certain areas where biology is a necessary thing to consider (certain sports, for example), I think the demands are minuscule compared to civil and equitable treatment.

I'm all for medical autonomy (for adults), and for equitable treatment. But I think trans activist's ideas are often poorly thought out, and go way past the things you and I just agreed to. (understanding that we don't agree on everything)

For instance?

BTW, I just want to say that I really appreciate the quality of the discussion we're having here!

I find civil discussion is more productive. I'm not perfect about not getting emotional about topics like this (I have loved one very much impact by the issue), but I try if it's reciprocated.

 

[icehorse]

Not really. Outside of certain areas where biology is a necessary thing to consider (certain sports, for example), I think the demands are minuscule compared to civil and equitable treatment.

We're agreed on civil and equitable treatment - although that ought to go both ways.

I think biology is also important in all women's safe spaces, and in health care.

I think ANY - even minor - encroachment on free speech must be stongly resisted.

For instance?

Medical interventions for youth, invading women's safe spaces, curbing free speech...

 

[VoidCat]

Our confusion/lack of understanding is seen by some as being transphobic which I think is BS because in reality those people are confused and don't fully understand it theirselves

Your own confusion does not mean that they are confused too....your last claim that it is they who are confused and not you is unjustified.

I dont think being confused is transphobic. But ill have you know I'm not confused about my identity as a nonbinary person. I understand it very well. Just cuz i might not know how being trans occurs tho there are theories doesnt mean I am confused by my identity