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UK PM Rishi Sunak: "A man is a man, and a woman is a woman, that's just common sense"

Guitar's Cry

Disciple of Pan
We're agreed on civil and equitable treatment - although that ought to go both ways.

I think biology is also important in all women's safe spaces, and in health care.

How does this issue impact women's safe spaces and healthcare?

I think ANY - even minor - encroachment on free speech must be stongly resisted.

Sure, but I am not seeing any legislation (in America anyway) limiting free speech on this. Anything else is free, but not from consequences. If you misgender someone at work, you could be fired. But this is true of anything else that would be harrassing.

Medical interventions for youth, invading women's safe spaces, curbing free speech...

Medical interventions for youth are between the family and doctor, hence medical autonomy.

What safe spaces are being invaded? If we're talking bathrooms, those have never really been safe spaces. They aren't locked and there's nobody monitoring them or checking people's biology. Free speech I discussed above.
 
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We Never Know

No Slack
I dont think being confused is transphobic. But ill have you know I'm not confused about my identity as a nonbinary person. I understand it very well. Just cuz i might not know how being trans occurs tho there are theories doesnt mean I am confused by my identity
"But ill have you know I'm not confused about my identity as a nonbinary person. I understand it very well."

You may now but have you always?
 

VoidCat

Use any and all pronouns including neo and it/it's
"But ill have you know I'm not confused about my identity as a nonbinary person. I understand it very well."

You may now but have you always?
Ive always knew i wasnt a woman. But over time ive learned more about my identity. I've never been confused by it. I didn't understand it completely in the past as I didn't kniw it was called nonbinary. But confused. No
 

We Never Know

No Slack
Ive always knew i wasnt a woman. But over time ive learned more about my identity. I've never been confused by it. I didn't understand it completely in the past as I didn't kniw it was called nonbinary. But confused. No
Exactly! You didn't always understand. It probably took you years of learning and living with it to get understanding.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
I'm all for medical autonomy (for adults), and for equitable treatment. But I think trans activist's ideas are often poorly thought out, and go way past the things you and I just agreed to. (understanding that we don't agree on everything)
You still, after a few threads, have yet to define what an activist is.
It seems to you its anyone who says they are the gender they identify as (regardless if they actually do activism) and support the idea that everyone must properly buggeroff and stay out of thr healthcare decisions made among a patient amd the patient's healthcare providers.
Am I wrong?
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Exactly! You didn't always understand. It probably took you years of learning and living with it to get understanding.
He just said he's never been confused about it. That doesn't seem like years of living with it to understand. More like just needing the words to better express who he is.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
I think ANY - even minor - encroachment on free speech must be stongly resisted.
How do you reconcile that against the fact other countries have things like hate speech laws and other restrictions that are far more robust than America's yet also rank higher in terms of freedom?
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
How does this issue impact women's safe spaces and healthcare?

Transactivists have succeeded in shutting down many lesbian gatherings.
It's becoming "normal" for people who look like men to enter locker rooms and shelters and such.
Transactivists are demanding that they be allowed to provide healthcare, even when patients do not want people with the other kind of genitalia to provide that care.
There are many medical situations in which biological sex is crucial to know.

And so on.

The summary opposition to trans activists is this: There are only two sexes, and sometimes that matters.

It's important to be precise here, and not conflate gender and sex.

Sure, but I am not seeing any legislation (in America anyway) limiting free speech on this. Anything else is free, but not from consequences. If you misgender someone at work, you could be fired. But this is true of anything else that would be harrassing.

Such legislation is popping up in other western countries, and (while i don't have it off the top of my head), I think we're starting to see "misgendering" as a crime. (And I can predict responses other posters will have to this, sigh.)

Medical interventions for youth are between the family and doctor, hence medical autonomy.

Why is this different that for driver's licences, voting, alcohol, and so on? In many cases, society has decided that minors are not mature enough to make complex, life long decisions.

And parents are not experts and most doctors are not experts. It's not the case that doctors who have a lot of experience with trans youth are readily available.
 

We Never Know

No Slack
He just said he's never been confused about it. That doesn't seem like years of living with it to understand. More like just needing the words to better express who he is.
You must be right. No young person born one sex, being raised as such but identifying as the opposite sex isn't confused and completely understands it. My bad :rolleyes:
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
You must be right. No young person born one sex, being raised as such but identifying as the opposite sex isn't confused and completely understands it. My bad :rolleyes:
Thats you putting words in his mouth. He said he's nit been confused. But you are insisting he must have been, because....you think you're a mind reader?
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Why is this different that for driver's licences, voting, alcohol, and so on?
I don't know? Suppose it has something to do with those not beijg medical things?
Read my post to them again.....'understand'
He said specifically he hasn't been confused. I've known I'm trans basically my entire life, not confused about it but it did take some time to learn about it.
If there was any confusion it's when I was in denial and trying to not be. But conversation therapy doesn't work.
 

We Never Know

No Slack
He said specifically he hasn't been confused. I've known I'm trans basically my entire life, not confused about it but it did take some time to learn about it.
If there was any confusion it's when I was in denial and trying to not be. But conversation therapy doesn't work.

No ****!! Which is why I didn't reply with 'confused'. They however did say they didn't understand it completely in the past

Ive always knew i wasnt a woman. But over time ive learned more about my identity. I've never been confused by it. I didn't understand it completely in the past as I didn't kniw it was called nonbinary. But confused. No

Exactly! You didn't always understand. It probably took you years of learning and living with it to get understanding.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
Transactivists have succeeded in shutting down many lesbian gatherings.
It's becoming "normal" for people who look like men to enter locker rooms and shelters and such.
Transactivists are demanding that they be allowed to provide healthcare, even when patients do not want people with the other kind of genitalia to provide that care.
There are many medical situations in which biological sex is crucial to know.

And so on.

The summary opposition to trans activists is this: There are only two sexes, and sometimes that matters.

It's important to be precise here, and not conflate gender and sex.
Ehh I’m a little skeptical of such claims. Not saying it didn’t happen, but I find that such claims usually have a lot more going on “behind the scenes” if you get me?
However, on the face of it, I will agree that those are indeed troubling if true

Though I will point out that there are in fact many cis women who “look like men” you know?
And vice versa even!

Such legislation is popping up in other western countries, and (while i don't have it off the top of my head), I think we're starting to see "misgendering" as a crime. (And I can predict responses other posters will have to this, sigh.)

Having worked with the public, trust me when I say, gendering people isn’t always as easy as people assume it is. That’s ignoring the existence of trans people even. I’ve misgendered many a cis person in my time by mistake. Luckily, being an Aussie, I could just blame the booze and everyone went on their merry way.
As to the hate crimes.
I’ve heard of legislation making intentional and prolonged misgendering people into crimes. Not sure about them being hate crimes, but minor crimes at least. And yeah that is a thing and is used to actively harass people. Both trans and cis folks alike. It should come with some consequences. Particularly in work environments. Don’t agree with them being turned into hate crimes, unless such misgendering was used in conjunction with other crimes against an individual. Which I think is the argument being made, if I’m not mistaken. Context is key!

The irony to all this is that transphobia actively causes these societal discomforts and arguably even exacerbates them. Transplanting them onto cis people even!
It accomplishes this by fixating on gender identity or people’s active skepticism of such claims and starts to put even more pressure on women to be more traditionally feminine and men to be more traditionally masculine. When in reality people, trans, cis, intersex etc alike come in all shapes and sizes. So cis women end up bullied for being perceived as trans or “not real women” due to these standards. I’ve seen it happen. I’m sure the reverse is true. It happened when homophobia was a thing too. It caused straight people who fit into gay stereotypes to be bullied for being gay. Even though they literally weren’t. History repeats itself, I guess.
Why is this different that for driver's licences, voting, alcohol, and so on? In many cases, society has decided that minors are not mature enough to make complex, life long decisions.

Because they don’t require medical intervention? Well alcohol may I guess lol

And parents are not experts and most doctors are not experts. It's not the case that doctors who have a lot of experience with trans youth are readily available.
Eh? Maybe 20 years ago. And possibly in the US in places, idk
But unless you’re living in the middle of nowhere (like, for instance, in the outback of Australia where there’s like 10 people to a town) I don’t know if that’s the case anymore.
At least in Australia, doctors are literally required by law to refer their patients to actual trained specialists, if the case requires. A trans youth is definitely an instance of such a case. And I would hazard a guess that a doctor, specialist or not, knows far more about trans youth than either of us do. And more than many parents for that matter.
 

VoidCat

Use any and all pronouns including neo and it/it's
No ****!! Which is why I didn't reply with 'confused'. They however did say they didn't understand it completely in the past
I should rephrase. I understood how i felt. But i didnt have the words for it till i was older
 

We Never Know

No Slack
I should rephrase. I understood how i felt. But i didnt have the words for it till i was older

So what are you saying? When you were younger...

Even though your body was one sex and your mind identified as another, you completely undersood it all?

Or when your were told what it was you completely understood it all?
 

VoidCat

Use any and all pronouns including neo and it/it's
So what are you saying? When you were younger...

Even though your body was one sex and your mind identified as another, you completely undersood it all?

Or when your were told what it was you completely understood it all?
I knew I was neither a man nor woman. Since I was 7. But I did not have the vocabulary to voice it till I was around 12 I think.
 

Orbit

I'm a planet
So what are you saying? When you were younger...

Even though your body was one sex and your mind identified as another, you completely undersood it all?

Or when your were told what it was you completely understood it all?
I think you're asking for a ridiculous level of detail here. Who remembers when they were told by their parent that they were a boy/girl and when they fully "understood" that?
 
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