UK PM Rishi Sunak: "A man is a man, and a woman is a woman, that's just common sense"

[Little Dragon]

And what do you have in mind regarding Brave New World?

Magnets...

 

[icehorse]

So we are in agreement then? Because I have a funny feeling you answered my question but in one of those little sneaky ways you will try to walk back later. I hope not. But I shall for now assume you have admitted that trans men are men and trans women are women ergo no issues. (A blue marble is a type of marble for example. Ergo blue marbles are marbles)

Not at all what I said, please reread my post #275.

 

[icehorse]

Transitional surgery hormone replacement and other treatments, are more effective, before puberty is completed.

My issue has little to do with "effectiveness".

 

[Little Dragon]

My issue has little to do with "effectiveness".

That seems to me an important consideration. If too old, the treatments are less effective. Why would that be desirable?

 

[icehorse]

I'm a bit lost. Doublethink is in 1984 but but where does it come into play in the trans issue? And what do you have in mind regarding Brave New World?

The claim that "a transwoman is a woman" is textbook doublethink.

 

[Little Dragon]

The claim that "a transwoman is a woman" is textbook doublethink.

Not really, double think is holding two mutually contradicting beliefs. Isn't it?
Believing a trans woman is a woman, is not double think then. It's dependent on your definition of a woman.
Is it the same as your definition as a genetically born female and to hell with gender identity? Or does the term woman, encompass more than just her birth certificate entries and genetic makeup? For me, I select the latter.

 

[icehorse]

Not really, double think is holding two mutually contradicting beliefs. Isn't it?
Believing a trans woman is a woman, is not double think then. It's dependent on your definition of a woman.
Is it the same as your definition as a genetically born female and to hell with gender identity? Or does the term woman, encompass more than just her birth certificate entries and genetic makeup? For me, I select the latter.

Can you tell me how you view the relationship between sex and gender as concepts?

 

[Kenny]

I have no idea why you still hold that position when there's no evidence supporting it.
The single article you posted last time didn't back up your claim either.
So why are you still making it?

Because science trumps psychological issues. My heart goes out to those which dysphoria, but I don't feel that simply making them feel that it is normal and using drugs are the answer to the psychological issue.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Because science trumps psychological issues. My heart goes out to those which dysphoria, but I don't feel that simply making them feel that it is normal and using drugs are the answer to the psychological issue.

The psychological issues you are claiming are bogus. That's my point.

I don't know what "science trumps psychological issues" is meant to mean. Perhaps you could elaborate.

 

[icehorse]

The psychological issues you are claiming are bogus. That's my point.

I don't know what "science trumps psychological issues" is meant to mean. Perhaps you could elaborate.

Sorry to butt in here, but I have to ask:

How is "feeling you're in the wrong body" not a psychological issue?

 

[exchemist]

The claim that "a transwoman is a woman" is textbook doublethink.

Oh I see. I rather agree.

My current view on that is I am of course prepared to treat a person who has had gender reassignment surgery as belonging to the sex they have transitioned to. But if not, I consider they still have the sex they were born with, though obviously they need to be treated with as much understanding as I can muster. I do not subscribe to the view that someone can just announce he or she now belongs to the opposite sex and then we all have to treat them as such in all respects. I don't think it is at all fair on biological women, in particular, and I know a lot of them are bothered by it. This whole area is very new, needs to be explored carefully by qualfied people and a balance found. This will take time. I resent the pressure groups trying to frogmarch society faster than it is ready to go, on such a fundamental thing.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Sorry to butt in here, but I have to ask:

How is "feeling you're in the wrong body" not a psychological issue?

It is. It can be a medical issue as well.

I'm talking about a specific claim made specifically by Kenny in the past in another thread, that he alluded to just now on this thread. He was claiming something about transgenderism being the result of trauma then posted an article that didn't back that up.

Sorry, I didn't realize that you probably won't have any idea what we're talking about. Didn't mean to derail your thread or anything.

 

[icehorse]

My current view on that is I'm prepared to treat a person who has had gender reassignment surgery as belonging to the sex they have transitioned to.

Are there typos there? I would have predicted you'd have said something like "... sex reassignment surgery to the gender..." ?

But maybe I need to understand how you define sex and gender?

But if not, I consider they still have the sex they were born with, though obviously they need to be treated with as much understanding as I can muster.

agreed,

 

[icehorse]

It is. It can be a medical issue as well.

I'm talking about a specific claim made specifically by Kenny in the past in another thread, that he alluded to just now on this thread. He was claiming something about transgenderism being the result of trauma then posted an article that didn't back that up.

Sorry, I didn't realize that you probably won't have any idea what we're talking about. Didn't mean to derail your thread or anything.

no worries, thanks for your response

That said, can you say a little more about when it's psychological and when it's medical?

 

[Kenny]

The psychological issues you are claiming are bogus. That's my point.

I don't know what "science trumps psychological issues" is meant to mean. Perhaps you could elaborate.

It is really simple.... Define XX and XY

 

[exchemist]

Are there typos there? I would have predicted you'd have said something like "... sex reassignment surgery to the gender..." ?

But maybe I need to understand how you define sex and gender?


agreed,

I'm old-fashioned when it comes to language and to me "male" and "female" are terms denoting sex. "Gender" is to me a grammatical term. What I meant is that if a man, say, has had reassignment surgery, I am quite willing to treat him as a woman. Is that clear?

P.S. I suppose I should explain my reasoning, which is that if he has gone through with the surgery that shows a firm and irrevocable commitment which, among other things, should reassure the women he is joining that he is not a threat to them in single sex situations.

 

[Debater Slayer]

I'm old-fashioned when it comes to language and to me "male" and "female" are terms denoting sex. "Gender" is to me a grammatical term.

I must be old-fashioned as well, then, because I agree with you that "male" and "female" are terms denoting sex. That's also the way medical organizations currently use them in medical contexts.

 

[Kenny]

He was claiming something about transgenderism being the result of trauma then posted an article that didn't back that up.

I'm sorry... but i think you cherry picked as I mentioned other reasons too. Maybe you just saw a certain post without seeing the other posts where I mentioned other issues?

 

[Kenny]

I must be old-fashioned as well, then, because I agree with you that "male" and "female" are terms denoting sex. That's also the way medical organizations currently use them in medical contexts.

No arguments here. Ditto for me.

 

[Debater Slayer]

No arguments here. Ditto for me.

I doubt anyone who accepts medical expertise will reject that usage. On the other hand, it is also the case that terms denoting sex are not always synonymous with one's gender, although the vast majority of humans have a gender matching their sex.