UK PM Rishi Sunak: "A man is a man, and a woman is a woman, that's just common sense"

[icehorse]

I'm old-fashioned when it comes to language and to me "male" and "female" are terms denoting sex

totally agreed.

"Gender" is to me a grammatical term.

My understanding is that the progressive left and trans activists want us to agree that the term "gender" is a societal construct. My understanding of what they mean seems to closely resemble the ideas of "masculine" and "feminine". So a girl who is a tomboy might be said to behave in masculine ways, and a boy who is effeminate ways might be said to behave in "feminine" ways. And masculine and feminine might be different from culture to culture.

What I meant is that if a man, say, has had reassignment surgery, I am quite willing to treat him as a woman. Is that clear?

Yes, I understand! And, fwiw, in some circumstances I'm willing to do the same. But there are situations in which biological sex matters, e.g., women's safe spaces, and in those cases I am not willing to treat a trans woman as a woman.

 

[Little Dragon]

Can you tell me how you view the relationship between sex and gender as concepts?

Again? Sex is a reproductive classification, first and foremost, the distinction between having male or female sex organs and either XX or XY sex chromosomes. Gender is less objectively determined in my view. Gender and Gender identity are distinct concepts, but there is much overlap.
Gender identity is an external expression of the gender or if you prefer, the sex, that the person does identify with. Psychologically.
Gender as a concept, is sex plus traditional cultural values and expectations.
If someone identifies as male or female, then this is their expressed identity, regardless of their sex. Since their own self identity, is what really counts.
Not any physical non conformity.

 

[icehorse]

LD said:
Not really, double think is holding two mutually contradicting beliefs. Isn't it?
Believing a trans woman is a woman, is not double think then. It's dependent on your definition of a woman.
Is it the same as your definition as a genetically born female and to hell with gender identity? Or does the term woman, encompass more than just her birth certificate entries and genetic makeup? For me, I select the latter.

Again? Sex is a reproductive classification, first and foremost, the distinction between having male or female sex organs and either XX or XY sex chromosomes. Gender is less objectively determined in my view. Gender and Gender identity are distinct concepts, but there is much overlap.
Gender identity is an external expression of the gender or if you prefer, the sex, that the person does identify with. Psychologically.
Gender as a concept, is sex plus traditional cultural values and expectations.
If someone identifies as male or female, then this is their expressed identity, regardless of their sex. Since their own self identity, is what really counts.
Not any physical non conformity.

If I'm understanding you:

"Woman" is a term that connotes biology, correct? Gender is more psychological, correct?

If that much is a fair rephrasing, then I'd say that "a transwoman (psychological) IS A woman (biology)" is an illogical equivalence.

 

[Drunk_Uncle_Bob]

Not at all what I said, please reread my post #275.

I do not have a problem with anything posted in 275. It is the comment on double speak that has me concerned.

The claim that "a transwoman is a woman" is textbook doublethink.

See this is in direct conflict with my most recent post that you claim to have no issue with? You playing games? Or are blue marbles not blue?

 

[icehorse]

That seems to me an important consideration. If too old, the treatments are less effective. Why would that be desirable?

Because all of these medical interventions have damaging, irreversible side-effects, and children don't have the cognitive development to make such consequential, permanent decisions.

 

[icehorse]

See this is in direct conflict with my most recent post that you claim to have no issue with?

in which post do you think I agreed with you, and on what claim. thanks

 

[Drunk_Uncle_Bob]

in which post do you think I agreed with you, and on what claim. thanks

Trans men are men and trans women are women. If you don't disagree with this then we have no qualm in this thread.

 

[icehorse]

Trans men are men and trans women are women

I do not agree.

 

[Drunk_Uncle_Bob]

I do not agree.

It took what? A half dozen back and forths to get you to state exactly what we both already knew? Interesting tactic. Now your turn.

 

[icehorse]

It took what? A half dozen back and forths to get you to state exactly what we both already knew? Interesting tactic. Now your turn.

Way back in post @275(?) or so I said:

A trans man is a trans man, and a trans woman is a trans woman. How is that a problem?

That question is still unanswered...

Let me put this another way: The claim that a trans woman is a woman is riddled with problems. What's wrong with simply calling trans women, trans women? How is that a problem?

 

[Drunk_Uncle_Bob]

Way back in post @275(?) or so I said:



That question is still unanswered...

Let me put this another way: The claim that a trans woman is a woman is riddled with problems. What's wrong with simply calling trans women, trans women? How is that a problem?

Nothing wrong with saying trans women are trans women. But to say trans women are not women is incorrect.

 

[icehorse]

Nothing wrong with saying trans women are trans women. But to say trans women are not women is incorrect.

Well I strongly disagree with your 2nd sentence (in bold), and most of the women I've talked to in person share my stance.

IMO, to say that "trans women are women" is extremely misogynistic and dangerous. And it's right out of the book 1984, it's doublethink.

And, I'm pretty sure you disagree

 

[icehorse]

@The Hammer ,

I'd bet $10 that you're using the "creative" emoji as a way to criticize my post. But it could just be me being jaded

Care to be less ambiguous?

 

[The Hammer]

IMO, to say that "trans women are women" is extremely misogynistic and dangerous.

I can see why you'd see that, but it wasn't intentional.

I find the above line of thinking to be a creative take on the subject.

I don't agree with you.

But as I have said before (and others in this thread), I'm not really interested in discussing things with you. So you will only get reax from me more often then not.

 

[icehorse]

I find the above line of thinking to be a creative take on the subject.

A lot of women agree with my stance. But who cares what women think?

@The Hammer : "I'm not really interested in discussing things with you."

I'm sure your reasoning is sound, I'm absolutely gutted. Gutted I tell you!

 

[The Hammer]

I'm sure your reasoning is sound, I'm absolutely gutted. Gutted I tell you!

It's still a creative response regardless if others hold the same view.



And it's not you it's me. Probably not the first time you've heard that.

 

[icehorse]

It's still a creative response regardless if others hold the same view.

Yeah, in general when women are worried about misogyny, they're mostly concerned with being creative. Why can't those women just stay on point!

 

[Little Dragon]

Because all of these medical interventions have damaging, irreversible side-effects, and children don't have the cognitive development to make such consequential, permanent decisions.

What if medical professionals disagree with your assessment above? That in fact to not do so would result in the greater harm. How do you answer that?

 

[icehorse]

What if medical professionals disagree with your assessment above? That in fact to not do so would result in the greater harm. How do you answer that?

It's a really good question.Some people choose to accept the idea that "doctors agree". I've done a fair bit of research on this topic and I've come to conclude that "doctors agree" on this point is largely not true.

Over the last few months I've engaged in many debates on RF about the question. To summarize (and probably open lots of cans of worms), here are some key questions and claims that are worth considering:

- In general how do you feel about your healthcare system?
- If you feel your healthcare system has many flaws, why do you trust them completely on this complex issue?
- If doctors in countries with better healthcare have different opinions, are they worth considering?
- From the perspective of common sense, which claims seem extraordinarily unintuitive? E.g., "puberty blockers are safe and reversible" - really?
- Does this question seem highly politicized?

 

[Little Dragon]

Over the last few months I've engaged in many debates on RF about the question. To summarize (and probably open lots of cans of worms), here are some key questions and claims that are worth considering:

- In general how do you feel about your healthcare system?
- If you feel your healthcare system has many flaws, why do you trust them completely on this complex issue?
- If doctors in countries with better healthcare have different opinions, are they worth considering?
- From the perspective of common sense, which claims seem extraordinarily unintuitive? E.g., "puberty blockers are safe and reversible" - really?
- Does this question seem highly politicized?

I'l answer those questions, from my own (medically) untrained and unqualified standpoint.

1. I feel very positive about my universal access healthcare system, in general.
2. I feel the system may have various systemic and or operational flaws, however I feel the medical professionals it hires, are in general capable and hardworking people whom earned their medical qualifications in a satisfactory and legitimate manner.
3. If different doctors have different opinions, then I would look to the consensus, and the body of evidence by which they are in agreement upon.
4. Puberty blockers may not either be reversible or safe, if the latter, than any victim of malpractice has a tort claim for negligence in most civil legal systems. As for the former. That must surely be a fact that is quite obvious to the person undergoing gender transition treatments and surgical procedures.
5. I have no issue with transgender rights and protections, I have every faith in people (including young people) to know what is best for themselves. I do not feel others can or should attempt to interfere in any long term decisions people make, that relate to their own bodies and minds. Unless there is very good reason. I don't see one here.