UK PM Rishi Sunak: "A man is a man, and a woman is a woman, that's just common sense"

[icehorse]

At least in Australia, doctors are literally required by law to refer their patients to actual trained specialists, if the case requires. A trans youth is definitely an instance of such a case. And I would hazard a guess that a doctor, specialist or not, knows far more about trans youth than either of us do. And more than many parents for that matter.

Have you heard about the big problem in the UK with the NHS Tavistock facility?

 

[We Never Know]

I think you're asking for a ridiculous level of detail here. Who remembers when they were told by their parent that they were a boy/girl and when they fully "understood" that?

Your mistake is being transgender isn't told to you by your parents, its self discovered.

 

[Orbit]

Your mistake is being transgender isn't told to you by your parents, its self discovered.

I think the process is analogous, though. You get told one thing as a kid (even trans people are told they are a boy/girl at first by parents); you either "grow into it" or you question it because as you grow it doesn't feel right. But I will let the trans folks talk about their experiences, I didn't mean to derail or "speak for".

 

[Shadow Wolf]

This. I worded things poorly. Im sorry @We Never Know

You didn't word things poorly. Don't apologize to someone twisting your words around and misrepresenting you.

 

[We Never Know]

I knew I was neither a man nor woman. Since I was 7. But I did not have the vocabulary to voice it till I was around 12 I think.

"I knew I was neither a man nor woman"

In my mind I can't phathom that. I have no clue and never will know what's thats like or how it feels.

Now someone can sympathize and say I know how you feel but in reality they may have an ideal but don't know IMO.

Its like when losing a family member and someone says "Sorry, I know how you feel".
Sometimes I want to say "The hell you do! You know you feel or felt but you don't know how I feel." but I know they are being sympathetic.
How we feel about things is individual to us all IMO.

 

[SomeRandom]

Have you heard about the big problem in the UK with the NHS Tavistock facility?

I actually haven’t, sorry to say.
I apologise for being not very well informed.
Though I have heard quite a few complaints about the NHS recently.

 

[SomeRandom]

I think you're asking for a ridiculous level of detail here. Who remembers when they were told by their parent that they were a boy/girl and when they fully "understood" that?

Whilst I agree.
I don’t think asking for that level of detail is always necessarily done for a bad reason.
People are often naturally curious about differing phenomenons. Particularly recent ones. And the “trans phenomenon” (for lack of a better phrase) is starting to become more and more prominent in our societies recently. Or at least more well known
Due to a growing acceptance and practices that are being actively adopted by professionals.
People will be naturally overtly curious about such a thing.
I think the questions that will inevitably pop up in response will be very naturally overly intrusive and perhaps even clumsy.
I can certainly agree with setting boundaries, I think we can should also expect this level of intrusion. Not because the asker is necessarily doing so in order to be mean. But because humans can be very inquisitive and that manifests in some rather awkward ways.

I am bi racial, although since my cultural background was one that is entirely foreign to my country, I was actually asked all sorts of very weird questions by my peers. And yeah it was actually quite intrusive at times, even questions that seemed to be no brainers. But usually it wasn’t done with a bad motivation. Usually
Just that human curiosity (and possibly Aussies being culturally quite blunt and straightforward) the responses manifested in rather “awkward” ways.

 

[Drunk_Uncle_Bob]

Talk amongst yourselves:

Wholeheartedly agree. A man is a man and a woman is a woman. That is just common sense. This is 100% true. But what is also true is trans men are men and trans women are women. So no conflict there.

 

[icehorse]

But what is also true is trans men are men and trans women are women.

I would advise you to read (reread?), Brave New World and 1984, and keep in mind they are DYSTOPIAN novels

 

[Drunk_Uncle_Bob]

I would advise you to read (reread?), Brave New World and 1984, and keep in mind they are DYSTOPIAN novels

And you should read Ranma 1/2. Keep in mind its an anime.

All jokes aside I understand what point you are trying to make. I just disagree with it wholeheartedly. In fact I would go so far as to say the themes of those books support trans rights.

 

[exchemist]

I would advise you to read (reread?), Brave New World and 1984, and keep in mind they are DYSTOPIAN novels

Does the trans issue come up in either of those? I can't say I remember that.

 

[icehorse]

And you should read Ranma 1/2. Keep in mind its an anime.

All jokes aside I understand what point you are trying to make. I just disagree with it wholeheartedly. In fact I would go so far as to say the themes of those books support trans rights.

and @exchemist,

We can (and I do), support trans rights without resorting to 1984-style doublethink.

 

[Drunk_Uncle_Bob]

and @exchemist,

We can (and I do), support trans rights without resorting to 1984-style doublethink.

Don't see it as double think. And if you do I doubt you support trans rights or at the very least don't understand trans rights.

If someone is a trans man do you think they are actually a woman? What an odd linguistic choice. That feels more like double think to me.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I think this goes a lot deeper that simply the biological truth of XX and XY. I believe it is basically the result of trauma that creates the dysphoria, not always but generally.

The mishandling of the positions or the absence of father and mother and/or abuse also feeds into it. Throw in culture, curiosity, peer pressure and abuse of positions of authority like teachers / misguided or "progressive" psychologist and other authority causes the problems of today.

I have no idea why you still hold that position when there's no evidence supporting it.
The single article you posted last time didn't back up your claim either.
So why are you still making it?

 

[icehorse]

Don't see it as double think. And if you do I doubt you support trans rights or at the very least don't understand trans rights.

If someone is a trans man do you think they are actually a woman? What an odd linguistic choice. That feels more like double think to me.

A trans man is a trans man, and a trans woman is a trans woman. How is that a problem?

 

[Drunk_Uncle_Bob]

A trans man is a trans man, and a trans woman is a trans woman. How is that a problem?

I don't see the problem I was waiting on you to show me where it was.

 

[icehorse]

I don't see the problem I was waiting on you to show me where it was.

I answered the question you asked in your post #273. And I asked you a question in return. Answer that, and I'll be happy to move to your next question

 

[exchemist]

and @exchemist,

We can (and I do), support trans rights without resorting to 1984-style doublethink.

I'm a bit lost. Doublethink is in 1984 but but where does it come into play in the trans issue? And what do you have in mind regarding Brave New World?

 

[Little Dragon]

I'm all for medical autonomy (for adults)

Transitional surgery hormone replacement and other treatments, are more effective, before puberty is completed.

 

[Drunk_Uncle_Bob]

I answered the question you asked in your post #273. And I asked you a question in return. Answer that, and I'll be happy to move to your next question

So we are in agreement then? Because I have a funny feeling you answered my question but in one of those little sneaky ways you will try to walk back later. I hope not. But I shall for now assume you have admitted that trans men are men and trans women are women ergo no issues. (A blue marble is a type of marble for example. Ergo blue marbles are marbles)