UK PM Rishi Sunak: "A man is a man, and a woman is a woman, that's just common sense"

[We Never Know]

A confusion/lack of understanding isn't enough to be seen as transphobic. It's when someone presents that confusion/misunderstanding in a way where it seems that they are trying to convince others, that things are prone at being labelled as transphobic.

Thank you for being the only one to actually address what my post said.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Are you claiming they completely understand what they are going through?

In my experience, trans people actually have a great degree of self-understanding. My best friend, a trans man, used to always feel uncomfortable seeing themselves in photos or videos before their realisation that they were trans, and could never really understand or articulate why. After their realisation and transition, they have become far more comfortable and self-understanding.

 

[We Never Know]

In my experience, trans people actually have a great degree of self-understanding. My best friend, a trans man, used to always feel uncomfortable seeing themselves in photos or videos before their realisation that they were trans, and could never really understand or articulate why. After their realisation and transition, they have become far more comfortable and self-understanding.

I'm sure after years they get a better acceptance of themselves and maybe a little more understanding but acceptance isn't fully understanding.
Take an 8 year old or even an 18 year old living as a male but identifying as a female, you cant convince me they fully understand.
I could be wrong here but I don't think science even fully understands it.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I'm sure after years they get a better acceptance of themselves and maybe a little more understanding but acceptance isn't fully understanding.
Take an 8 year old or even an 18 year old living as a male but identifying as a female, you cant convince me they fully understand.
I could be wrong here but I don't think science even fully understands it.

I think full understanding is perhaps a vain hope. Sometimes, the best we can hope for is greater understanding, and often that's enough. I'm glad my friend's transition has resulted in him feeling more comfortable in his own skin, even if I can't say that they fully understand themselves yet. I hope that means something.

 

[We Never Know]

I think full understanding is perhaps a vain hope. Sometimes, the best we can hope for is greater understanding, and often that's enough. I'm glad my friend's transition has resulted in him feeling more comfortable in his own skin, even if I can't say that they fully understand themselves yet. I hope that means something.

"I'm glad my friend's transition has resulted in him feeling more comfortable in his own skin"

I'm glad for them to. I couldn't imagine the confusion, pain, self-judgement, etc that comes with living as one and identifying as the other.

As I stated, I am a male. In my mind I don't understand how a male can identify as a female.
I would say that's a normal view but would get beat for "what is normal? are you saying they aren't normal? and other straw man BS.

Lack of understanding doesn't mean someone is transphobic anymore than lack of understanding of physics means someone is stupid.

 

[Left Coast]

Dude. My OP, you do not get to shift the goalposts. As I said, I'll you on a separate thread

Your OP asked for our thoughts! LOL.



You can't "shift the goal post" of the most general OP ever.

It's clear you're not interested in a good faith conversation. If you're ever ready to get serious, let me know.

 

[Little Dragon]

Are you claiming they completely understand what they are going through?

No. However I am sure they are best placed to judge, what is best. For them. Ultimately.

 

[Little Dragon]

As for your other thoughts, the issue is much broader than sports. It includes all manner of safe spaces for women, healthcare concerns, and not-so-hidden misogyny.

Simple enough, we deal with each case by it's own merit. No blanket "solutions" preferably. In my view.

 

[Little Dragon]

Lack of understanding doesn't mean someone is transphobic anymore than lack of understanding of physics means someone is stupid.

For what it is worth, I didn't consider your responses to me or others, transphobic. That would have to be inferred indirectly, and I would say without any evidence. I do not understand people who like watching reality TV shows, it's so banal and inane, so mindless. To me. However I don't have to understand completely or even partly. I just have to accept that they enjoy that nonsense and it gives them pleasure to be invested in it. So I am not calling for such shows to be banned, even though I don't understand the appeal, whatsoever. If that helps?

 

[icehorse]

Your OP asked for our thoughts! LOL.



You can't "shift the goal post" of the most general OP ever.

It's clear you're not interested in a good faith conversation. If you're ever ready to get serious, let me know.

There is a very consistent pattern to these threads. The OP lays out an idea and posters start riffing on that idea. Threads evolve. Early in this thread the idea came up that Sunak's statement was transphobic. That's the direction the thread took. That's where the conversation was when you jumped in.

I told you several times that I would be more than happy to join you in a different thread to talk about what you wanted to talk about. But at that stage, you were trying to hijack the conversation.

So again, with jazz hands, if you start a new thread I will join you there in good faith.

 

[icehorse]

Simple enough, we deal with each case by it's own merit. No blanket "solutions" preferably. In my view.

It might surprise you to know that your view is more reasoned and nuanced than is normal on this forum, concerning this topic.

thanks.

 

[Secret Chief]

"Belgium’s deputy prime minister, who ranks as one of Europe’s most senior transgender politicians, has urged Rishi Sunak not to join “the real bullies” after remarks made by the British prime minister at the Conservative party conference this week.
---
The prime minister’s comments came as it was revealed that the number of hate crimes committed against transgender people last year in England and Wales had climbed to a record high, with the Home Office suggesting in its report that the 11% rise may have been prompted by comments by politicians and media."

- Belgian transgender deputy PM urges Sunak not to join ‘the real bullies’

 

[Little Dragon]

It might surprise you to know that your view is more reasoned and nuanced than is normal on this forum, concerning this topic.

thanks.

I am always frank open fair (ish) and willing to do my best to explain myself.
No topic in my view can't be discussed reasonably and calmly and above all fairly.

 

[icehorse]

"Belgium’s deputy prime minister, who ranks as one of Europe’s most senior transgender politicians, has urged Rishi Sunak not to join “the real bullies” after remarks made by the British prime minister at the Conservative party conference this week.
---
The prime minister’s comments came as it was revealed that the number of hate crimes committed against transgender people last year in England and Wales had climbed to a record high, with the Home Office suggesting in its report that the 11% rise may have been prompted by comments by politicians and media."

- Belgian transgender deputy PM urges Sunak not to join ‘the real bullies’

I'm inferring that you think that the comment of Sunak's that we've been debating could be a factor in hate crimes? If I'm understanding you correctly, can you connect the dots? I struggle to see the chain of logic in the Belgium PM's comment?

 

[Little Dragon]

Belgium’s deputy prime minister, who ranks as one of Europe’s most senior transgender politicians, has urged Rishi Sunak not to join “the real bullies” after remarks made by the British prime minister at the Conservative party conference this week.
---

I would urge Rishy Sunak to hold a motion of no confidence in the government, so that we can have a general election and get this clown show out of government, before more people get hurt.

 

[Left Coast]

There is a very consistent pattern to these threads. The OP lays out an idea and posters start riffing on that idea. Threads evolve. Early in this thread the idea came up that Sunak's statement was transphobic. That's the direction the thread took. That's where the conversation was when you jumped in.

I told you several times that I would be more than happy to join you in a different thread to talk about what you wanted to talk about. But at that stage, you were trying to hijack the conversation.

So again, with jazz hands, if you start a new thread I will join you there in good faith.

But that isn't what happened. You asked for people's thoughts. You then questioned the relevance of what people said when they gave their thoughts. I called you out on it.

Then you tried to reset the conversation with a silly hypothetical after our exchange had already started. I had alreadu asked you if you understand that Sunak's comments were political and related to trans issues, and you chose to respond and concede. So then I asked you a natural follow up which you didn't answer. That's where we are.

So again, when you're ready to be serious and actually have a good faith exchange, you tell me. We can have it right here. It's relevant to the thread, and would even help answer your question you keep asking as though you don't know the answer.

The ball is firmly in your court. We'll see what you do with it.

 

[Little Dragon]

I'm inferring that you think that the comment of Sunak's that we've been debating could be a factor in hate crimes?

Comments, like his. I imagine it can't do anything to improve the safety of trans people nor help with empowering their rights. Going forward...

 

[icehorse]

So then I asked you a natural follow up which you didn't answer. That's where we are.

How about a little give and take:

Ask me your follow up question and I'll answer it. But...

you need to take a whack at explaining why Sunak's comment was transphobic.

 

[Secret Chief]

I'm inferring that you think that the comment of Sunak's that we've been debating could be a factor in hate crimes? If I'm understanding you correctly, can you connect the dots? I struggle to see the chain of logic in the Belgium PM's comment?

You really can't connect the dots between such publicly expressed sentiments and hate crimes? If not, I can't help you.

 

[icehorse]

Comments, like his. I imagine it can't do anything to improve the safety of trans people nor help with empowering their rights. Going forward...

What impact - if any - do you think trying to radically warp language and reality has on the safety of trans people?

More specifically, you and I both took a lot of energy and calm and trust to pin down definitions of crucial concepts like male, female, gender and so on. We still disagree on the definitions.

Do you think that most people will have the patience for such discussions? I think that when trans activists push so hard to forcibly alter language and reality, they are doing the opposite of protecting trans people.