UK PM Rishi Sunak: "A man is a man, and a woman is a woman, that's just common sense"

[icehorse]

Man = Male and Woman = Female. In classical descriptive terms. Male and Female are very much gender terms.

hmmm. I thought the new thinking was that gender was a social construct?

 

[icehorse]

Your opinion is not fact here. Sadly.

please tell me the link that shows the logic.

 

[Little Dragon]

please tell me the post that explains the chain of logic used to go from Sunak's sentence to the claim that the sentence is transphobic.

Once more then.

1) Stating that men are men and women are women is another way (and insidious way) of saying, that gender identity is subordinate to this basic (biologic) presumption. Otherwise why would he say it?

Please respond to that first before I go on.

 

[Little Dragon]

hmmm. I thought the new thinking was that gender was a social construct?

Gender identity is a social construct. Biological and genetic gender, is a scientifically qualified physical determination.

 

[sayak83]

Wow! I have asked a simple question. Most of the posters on this thread seem certain that Sunak is being transphobic but so far no one can explain why. So now somehow you assemble a concoction of strawman arguments that puts me into the science denier category? Think about what you just said to me...

I did. My reply is quite fair. I provided links with serious scientific work on understanding the specific health and well being challenges of transgender communities....showing that science is fully onboard with these being real biological, physiological and mental orientation categories in humans.
Thus any body who says "man is a man" and "woman is a woman" and thereby effectively denying the existence of the entire category of transgender people as real is a science denier. That is all.

 

[Little Dragon]

hmmm. I thought the new thinking was that gender was a social construct?

Basically possessing XY sex chromosomes, does not mean you will identify as a male. It does not mean you will identify as the socially constructed male gender identity. On any level. Including sexuality. Same, but reversed, applies to those in possession of XX chromosomes.

 

[icehorse]

Once more then.

1) Stating that men are men and women are women is another way of saying, that gender identity is subordinate to this basic presumption. Otherwise why would he say it?

Please respond to that first before I go on.

Gender identity is a social construct. Biological and genetic gender, is a scientifically qualified physical determination.

Okay, I think you've made several claims here. I'm not sure I'm understanding you so I'm going to try to paraphrase them. I might get this wrong because the claims seem to me to be logically inconsistent with each other, so bear with me...

1 - You're saying that Sunak's claim implies that gender identity is subordinate to biology?
2 - You're saying gender identity is a social construct?
3 - you're saying biological gender is a physical determination?
4 - you're saying genetic gender is a physical determination?

I apologize in advance if I misunderstood you. Do my rephrasings accurately represent what you're claiming?

 

[icehorse]

I did. My reply is quite fair.

Do you think you made strawman claims? How did you conclude I was being anti-science?

 

[sayak83]

Do you think you made strawman claims? How did you conclude I was being anti-science?

I have edited my reply.
Also I said that IF you deny the real and legitimate existence of transgender categories THEN you would be a science denier.
If you are not. No problem.
If you have not made up your mind, then links to the science should help.

 

[We Never Know]

And here we have it: the latest weekly anti-trans thread.
Why would you post this? It's insulting to our members who are trans.

I'm just going to throw this out there....

I'm male and I'm confused how another male can identify as female.
My wife is female and she is confused how another female can identify as male.
Then there are nonbinary that don't identify as either and then we are even more confused because we are like besides male and female, what else is there?

Our confusion/lack of understanding is seen by some as being transphobic which I think is BS because in reality those people are confused and don't fully understand it theirselves.

 

[Little Dragon]

Okay, I think you've made several claims here. I'm not sure I'm understanding you so I'm going to try to paraphrase them. I might get this wrong because the claims seem to me to be logically inconsistent with each other, so bear with me...

1 - You're saying that Sunak's claim implies that gender identity is subordinate to biology?
2 - You're saying gender identity is a social construct?
3 - you're saying biological gender is a physical determination?
4 - you're saying genetic gender is a physical determination?

I apologize in advance if I misunderstood you. Do my rephrasings accurately represent what you're claiming?

Biological and genetic gender are largely interchangeable terms. Most people whom have XY chromosomes manifest male sexual organs etc.
Although not always.

Otherwise that is fine yes. Not at all logically inconsistent though.

 

[Kenny]

Talk amongst yourselves:

I think this goes a lot deeper that simply the biological truth of XX and XY. I believe it is basically the result of trauma that creates the dysphoria, not always but generally.

The mishandling of the positions or the absence of father and mother and/or abuse also feeds into it. Throw in culture, curiosity, peer pressure and abuse of positions of authority like teachers / misguided or "progressive" psychologist and other authority causes the problems of today.

 

[Little Dragon]

I'm male and I'm confused how another male can identify as female.

Because they want to be treated as if they were born female...by society, their community, their network, their relations, their lovers etc..

That is not difficult to understand, they do not want to be treated like males, they do not want to even resemble males. They want to be counted among females.

 

[icehorse]

Basically possessing XY sex chromosomes, does not mean you will identify as a male.

Are you using "male" as a biology term or a gender term or both?

It does not mean you will identify as the socially constructed male gender identity.

Similar question. Now I would be less confused if you said "socially constructed masculine gender identity". But I do not want to put words in your mouth. Are you equating "male" with "masculine" ?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Wow! I have asked a simple question. Most of the posters on this thread seem certain that Sunak is being transphobic but so far no one can explain why. So now somehow you assemble a concoction of strawman arguments that puts me into the science denier category? Think about what you just said to me...

No one? Please check out my response to you in post #109, which you seem to have ignored, despite having asked for it.

 

[icehorse]

I have edited my reply.
Also I said that IF you deny the real and legitimate existence of transgender categories THEN you would be a science denier.
If you are not. No problem.
If you have not made up your mind, then links to the science should help.

I have made no such denials.

I will say however that it's unclear to me why you would bring up these only partially related ideas? They seem off topic. If you think they are on topic, can you explain your logic?

 

[icehorse]

Sunak is an educated man, with access to the best advisers, medical and all other, in the Kingdom. As Prime Minister, it is his responsibility to be as informed as possible before he makes pronouncements and decisions. His avoidance ("phobic" can mean avoidance as well as fear) of the findings of decades of research and study of the trans phenomenon, in spite of all the information he has available to him -- and to do it publicly in the media -- can well be described as transphobic.

How does his claim avoid decades of research?

 

[Little Dragon]

Are you using "male" as a biology term or a gender term or both?

Scientifically, a male of an animal species, has only reproductive organs that produce gamete sperm cells. Thus the organism is biologically and genetically male.
Socially, a male or man, is usually a biological and genetic male, however there are biological and genetic females, that would prefer to also be identified as a male or man, treated so, considered so, legally and otherwise.

 

[Little Dragon]

Are you equating "male" with "masculine" ?

They are related concepts. Masculinity however is a relative and abstract idea. What some consider masculine others do not. Depending on cultural historical and other factors.

 

[sayak83]

I have made no such denials.

I will say however that it's unclear to me why you would bring up these only partially related ideas? They seem off topic. If you think they are on topic, can you explain your logic?

I do not have any interest in discussing or debating with people who do not, out front, tell me what his/her own stance on the topic (here regarding existence of transgender people as real categories that Sunak is denying) is.
In Hindu debating theory it is called the lowest and the most dishonest form of discussion.
I am not talking to Sunak. I am taking to you. What is your stance?