Little Dragon
Well-Known Member
Anytime. No worries.
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UK PM Rishi Sunak: "A man is a man, and a woman is a woman, that's just common sense"
- Thread starter icehorse
- Start date
I'm inferring that you agree with the poster(s) who said that Sunak's comments were transphobic? That's the claim I'm trying to understand.
The political-ness of Sunak's claim is perhaps another interesting topic. If you want to start another thread on that topic, I'll discuss it with you there.
But the unanswered question on the table now, is "what's the logic to support the claim that Sunak's comment was transphobic?'
Little Dragon
Well-Known Member
It's been answered.
what post? (back in a bit)It's been answered.
Little Dragon
Well-Known Member
I mean for pity's sake. Why would he say it? Clearly to signal that he is a greasy little worm. To tell the far right "I am on your side chaps''. Basically you're just saying you don't give an owls hoot for how people wish to identify. If you don't reply at all to the reasoning I posited.
Dude.
You're not answering the direct question I just asked you. I've now asked you multiple times. You are not engaging in good faith conversation here. If you want to have a genuine conversation, answer the follow up question I asked you. You conceded that the slogan was political and has to do with trans issues. So what was Sunak communicating to his fans? What was he telling them?
Little Dragon
Well-Known Member
Little Dragon
Well-Known Member
Sunak was saying, effectively, that gender identity is invalid. Is un real. Does not exist... He is a fool and a coward. Targeting vulnerable people. His remark, demeans, transsexuals. It belittles them and he is signalling that he is indifferent to their plight.
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It is "a societal issue" only because our society includes (whether we like it or not) people who are transgender. It is not a "cultural" issue -- transgenderism isn't culture -- nor is it ethical or moral.
Ever had a Jack Russell terrier? It's a dog that thinks it's much bigger than it is. It isn't any bigger than it is, but the dog doesn't know that, and lives it's entire life that way, and can do no other. Perception is a thing of the mind, so how a person perceives themself to be in their mind is who they are in their own reality. A transgender woman may look down and see a penis, and intellectually understands that it is attached and a part of their body, but their internal self perceives it to be wrongly attached -- a mistake. Maybe not an easy one to correct, but a mistake none-the-less.
Where so many people get this simply wrong is that they overrate the physical body and underrate the mind. Only the physical is what's important, not what one thinks. But I'll tell you -- like the Little Engine that Could -- a strong man who does not think he can lift that enormous weight will not be able to do so, but a much weaker woman who thinks she can lift a car off her trapped child very well might.
Why is it a "societal issue?" Because society must either accept and accomodate or reject and not accomodate its members. There was a time when many public buildings and facilities (like public transportation) made little or no accommodation for disabled persons. In my city, Toronto, our subway system is still undergoing work to make all of its stations accessible, and as a result there are still stations that my partner cannot go to. At some point in our history, we decided that people confined to wheelchairs and such had just as much right to go shopping or to the zoo -- and to use the washrooms -- as anybody else, and so we started making those things accessible to them. We did not ask the disabled to "fix themselves" so that they wouldn't need an elevator or wide-doored stall in the bathroom. Instead, we started building the elevators and wide-doored stalls.
Well, of course, something like 1 in 6 people have some sort of disability, so maybe we should accomodate them, but such a small number experience gender dysphoria that maybe we needn't bother? Yes, that's a societal issue, and societal can and will decide what it wants to do. If we selfishly decide we don't care enough to try and accomodate that small number, then we won't.
There some who think that transgenderism is "cultural" or "ethical and moral," but that is only because they are applying their own limited thinking (often for religious reasons, but also often through simple unwillingness to try, even for a moment, to understand such a person, because that understanding is difficult to achieve, and who has the time, eh?). Being gay or straight isn't a moral or ethical issue either. My love for my partner is good for both of us, good for our society (I care for him so society doesn't have to), and otherwise totally outside of the concern of anybody else -- I care not one whit about what they think of two men in the same bed. Similarly, if a friend Leonard K-- (there was such a person that I knew in the early 1970s) thought of herself as Lynn K-- and wanted her body to conform, then what did I have to say about it? As it happens, Lynn did eventually commit suicide.
Medical science (which does not include Rishy Sunak, nor you apparently) views transgenderism through a multidisciplinary lens, incorporating aspects of psychology, endocrinology, surgery, and other fields. Several major medical organizations recognize transgender identities as valid and have outlined guidelines for the care and support of transgender individuals. Here's an overview of how medical science approaches the topic:
- Diagnostic Terminology: In previous editions of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM), terms like "gender identity disorder" were used. However, the most recent edition, the DSM-5, has changed this terminology to "gender dysphoria," reflecting an understanding that being transgender is not a disorder in itself. Instead, gender dysphoria refers to the distress some transgender individuals might feel due to the incongruence between their gender identity and their assigned sex at birth.
- Biological Factors: Some studies suggest that there are neuroanatomical differences in the brains of transgender individuals compared to cisgender individuals. The exact causes of being transgender are not fully understood, but there's consensus that it likely arises from a complex interplay of biological, environmental, and cultural factors.
- Medical Interventions: Medical interventions for transgender individuals can include hormone therapy and surgeries such as mastectomy, vaginoplasty, phalloplasty, and facial feminization surgery, among others. The decision to undergo any of these treatments is deeply personal, and the pathways are tailored to the individual's needs and desires.
- Affirmation and Support: Numerous medical organizations, including the American Medical Association, the World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH), and the Endocrine Society, emphasize the importance of affirming and supporting transgender individuals in their identities. They recognize the negative impacts of discrimination, rejection, and lack of support, including increased risks of mental health issues and suicidality.
- Mental Health: It's important to distinguish between the inherent experience of being transgender and the mental health challenges that can arise from societal stigmatization, discrimination, and lack of acceptance. Being transgender is not a mental illness. However, due to the challenges they might face, transgender individuals have a higher risk of experiencing depression, anxiety, and other mental health concerns.
- Ethical and Cultural Considerations: The medical community recognizes the importance of culturally competent care for transgender individuals. This includes using preferred pronouns, names, and understanding the specific health needs and concerns of transgender patients.
There, are you satisfied? I don't "grok" transgenderism, but I am making my best effort to understand it, because from the time I first met Leonard/Lynn K-- I've known that it exists. I only wish others would get off their judgmental high-horses and do the same.
Little Dragon
Well-Known Member
Stranger in a strange land reference...+10 pts.
Okay, I did a full-blown job of answering you, though I didn't want to. Now, I want you to go along with me and try a thought experiment. Not many people will do this, and (so far as I've found) very few will do it honestly, or without posing so many caveats that the experiment becomes meaningless. Still, I gave your challenge my best -- I hope you might do the same.
I don't know your gender, but for now, I shall assume it is male. (If I'm wrong, then you'll have to reverse everything throughout the experiment -- but note, I'd like any other male who reads this to try the experiment for themselves, and respond here.)
Here is the scenario: you are a heterosexual male, but an evil scientist with the most brilliant surgical skills has abducted you, and having placed you under general anaesthetic, has transformed your body -- your face, your genitalia, even your internal sexual organs and glands -- so that your are now a very, very attractive, unmistakable (without doing a DNA test) woman.
On waking up from surgery, you are instructed by this evil genius to "go out and live as a woman. Find yourself a good and handsome man, learn to live your sexual life more submissively on your back with an active male doing what comes naturally to him on top of you. And above all, be happy."
Now, the question in this experiment is this: since your whole body was transformed, but your mind left unaltered, how would you go about training your mind to accept this new truth about "who you are, and how you should behave" so as to fit into the world as you always understood it before? And above all, be happy?
Little Dragon
Well-Known Member
Like being in the navy/prison.
Thank you, but that's the wrong analogy. I meant that as a serious thought experiment -- a way to help members try to think about who "they really are." Are they only their body? Only their mind? Both? Neither?
Going further, we might ask ourselves this question about transgendered folks: Is it really "gender dysphoria" or is it rather "body dysmorphia?" That is -- is it the right body with the wrong brain, or the right brain with the wrong body? In the end, which of those is really "who you are?"
Little Dragon
Well-Known Member
I was attempting humour. Apologies.
Sorry, I knew that, and appreciate it. I'm just hoping to get somebody, anybody, to actually try to do the thought experiment.
Little Dragon
Well-Known Member
I am bi, so, easy.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
As that's a very poor example, no.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
My money is they get really grossed out feeling a pair of tits dangling and bouncing around on their chest and cry the first time a guy looks at them like a piece of meat.
That will be too simple. We will simply give him medical literature showing the reality of transgender categories and the slew of legitimate medical procedures regarding sex change and their demonstrated improvement in the person's quality of life.
After reading that, he should be convinced that the claim of immutable gender/ sex categories are simply false and claims of that nature by public persona being another example of prejudice (as was done against homosexuals before).
Dude. My OP, you do not get to shift the goalposts. As I said, I'll you on a separate thread