UK PM Rishi Sunak: "A man is a man, and a woman is a woman, that's just common sense"

[icehorse]

Sunak was saying, effectively, that gender identity is invalid. Is un real. Does not exist... He is a fool and a coward. Targeting vulnerable people. His remark, demeans, transsexuals. It belittles them and he is signalling that he is indifferent to their plight.

I'm making a few inferences here, but I might be wrong. That's why I keep asking for your logic. You seem to be inferring that Sunak was referring to gender? How did you make that inference? (I'll almost certainly have followup questions, thanks)

 

[icehorse]

There, are you satisfied? I don't "grok" transgenderism, but I am making my best effort to understand it, because from the time I first met Leonard/Lynn K-- I've known that it exists. I only wish others would get off their judgmental high-horses and do the same.

I appreciate all the thought and energy you put into that post. I'm sincere.

But none of it addressed my question. Why is what Sunak said transphobic? I'm inferring you have a chain of logic to support that claim. That's what I'm interested in understanding. It's like Sunak said X and X assumes Y and Y assumes Z and therefore... or whatever. This is not about denying the existence of trans people. It's about describing how you logically get from what Sunak said to a claim of "transphobic".

thank you!!!

 

[icehorse]

Okay, I did a full-blown job of answering you, though I didn't want to. Now, I want you to go along with me and try a thought experiment. Not many people will do this, and (so far as I've found) very few will do it honestly, or without posing so many caveats that the experiment becomes meaningless. Still, I gave your challenge my best -- I hope you might do the same.

I don't know your gender, but for now, I shall assume it is male. (If I'm wrong, then you'll have to reverse everything throughout the experiment -- but note, I'd like any other male who reads this to try the experiment for themselves, and respond here.)

Here is the scenario: you are a heterosexual male, but an evil scientist with the most brilliant surgical skills has abducted you, and having placed you under general anaesthetic, has transformed your body -- your face, your genitalia, even your internal sexual organs and glands -- so that your are now a very, very attractive, unmistakable (without doing a DNA test) woman.

On waking up from surgery, you are instructed by this evil genius to "go out and live as a woman. Find yourself a good and handsome man, learn to live your sexual life more submissively on your back with an active male doing what comes naturally to him on top of you. And above all, be happy."

Now, the question in this experiment is this: since your whole body was transformed, but your mind left unaltered, how would you go about training your mind to accept this new truth about "who you are, and how you should behave" so as to fit into the world as you always understood it before? And above all, be happy?

I would find that situation extremely challenging, as I assume almost everyone would. And I understand that you're drawing a parallel to the trans person's experience.

I'm NOT denying the existence of trans people. I'm not trivializing their difficulties. I'm not suggesting that they be discriminated against.

MY ONLY QUESTION is: what sequence of logic do you use to travel from Sunak's statement to the claim that that statement is transphobic????

 

[icehorse]

That will be too simple. We will simply give him medical literature showing the reality of transgender categories and the slew of legitimate medical procedures regarding sex change and their demonstrated improvement in the person's quality of life.
After reading that, he should be convinced that the claim of immutable gender/ sex categories are simply false and claims of that nature by public persona being another example of prejudice (as was done against homosexuals before).

Can you explain in detail the part of your post I bolded? Specifically, what do you mean by "gender/sex"?

 

[Subduction Zone]

My cousin has a mosaic of XX and XXY sex chromsomes, not the standard XY or XX, they are genetically hermaphrodite. So this is a subject that is close to home. I iz very interested in what ppl think here...about the subject in general.

It sounds like they are a medical chimera. That is where two separate fertilized eggs combine. It can lead to very strange outcomes. That happens fairly often with cats. In humans it can only occur in families where "twins run in our family). That is when a woman has more than one egg per period. Cats tend to have six or more eggs per period so they have many more chances at it than humans do. Here is what a chimera cat can look like:

What is a Chimera Cat? - Cat-World

A chimera cat has a multicoloured face due to its DNA. Thanks to social media, awareness of this condition has grown in recent years.

cat-world.com

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Dude. My OP, you do not get to shift the goalposts. As I said, I'll you on a separate thread

He's not shifting any goal posts. You just consistently are not answering his question.

 

[sayak83]

Can you explain in detail the part of your post I bolded? Specifically, what do you mean by "gender/sex"?

I am not a specialist in medical literature of this domain. If you are interested there are many here who can point to you resources for the same.
Here is just one technical book on the topic
Transgender Medicine
Here is a review specifically about hormonal systems and associated interventions for transgender people
Endocrinology of Transgender Medicine
I am not sure what your stance is on the topic, but if you believe that thousands of experts in medicine and psychiatry working on this are all idiots in spending their scientific and medical careers on a community that actually does not exist...then you going into science denialism territory.

 

[Little Dragon]

I'm making a few inferences here, but I might be wrong. That's why I keep asking for your logic. You seem to be inferring that Sunak was referring to gender? How did you make that inference? (I'll almost certainly have followup questions, thanks)

He used the words male and female, hence I knew he was referring to gender.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I appreciate all the thought and energy you put into that post. I'm sincere.

But none of it addressed my question. Why is what Sunak said transphobic? I'm inferring you have a chain of logic to support that claim. That's what I'm interested in understanding. It's like Sunak said X and X assumes Y and Y assumes Z and therefore... or whatever. This is not about denying the existence of trans people. It's about describing how you logically get from what Sunak said to a claim of "transphobic".

thank you!!!

Sunak is an educated man, with access to the best advisers, medical and all other, in the Kingdom. As Prime Minister, it is his responsibility to be as informed as possible before he makes pronouncements and decisions. His avoidance ("phobic" can mean avoidance as well as fear) of the findings of decades of research and study of the trans phenomenon, in spite of all the information he has available to him -- and to do it publicly in the media -- can well be described as transphobic.

 

[Little Dragon]

His avoidance ("phobic" can mean avoidance as well as fear) of the findings of decades of research and study of the trans phenomenon, in spite of all the information he has available to him -- and to do it publicly in the media -- can well be described as transphobic.

Quite, and all this will soon be irrelevant when the grinning tool and his pathetic party, are removed from government.

 

[Little Dragon]

and cry the first time a guy looks at them like a piece of meat.

It's an uncomfortable feeling. My appearance is atypical of most males, I am often mistaken for a girl. Especially when I was a teen. Of course girls look at me like that too sometimes, but it's a less intensive gaze, more smiley. More blinking.

 

[Little Dragon]

It sounds like they are a medical chimera. That is where two separate fertilized eggs combine. It can lead to very strange outcomes. That happens fairly often with cats. In humans it can only occur in families where "twins run in our family). That is when a woman has more than one egg per period. Cats tend to have six or more eggs per period so they have many more chances at it than humans do. Here is what a chimera cat can look like:

View attachment 83209

What is a Chimera Cat? - Cat-World

A chimera cat has a multicoloured face due to its DNA. Thanks to social media, awareness of this condition has grown in recent years.

cat-world.com

My cousin has both male and female reproductive tissues and organs. Complicated plumbing!

 

[icehorse]

I am not sure what your stance is on the topic, but if you believe that thousands of experts in medicine and psychiatry working on this are all idiots in spending their scientific and medical careers on a community that actually does not exist...then you going into science denialism territory.

Wow! I have asked a simple question. Most of the posters on this thread seem certain that Sunak is being transphobic but so far no one can explain why. So now somehow you assemble a concoction of strawman arguments that puts me into the science denier category? Think about what you just said to me...

 

[Little Dragon]

Wow! I have asked a simple question. Most of the posters on this thread seem certain that Sunak is being transphobic but so far no one can explain why.

Incorrect, it's been repeatedly explained. Your incredulity or inability to understand the responses, notwithstanding,

 

[icehorse]

He used the words male and female, hence I knew he was referring to gender.

Ok, now we're getting somewhere! First of all, you just misquoted him, the clue is in the title of the thread. But let's let that go for now. So if I understand you correctly, you're saying that male and female are gender terms?

 

[Colt]

Talk amongst yourselves:

He's brave to speak the truth in a society that enables people to destroy themselves. It's not love to be an enabler! IMOP This recent fad will eventually die off and those who spoke the truth in the face of such venomous hatred will be vindicated.

 

[icehorse]

Incorrect, it's been repeatedly explained. Your incredulity or inability to understand the responses, notwithstanding,

please tell me the post that explains the chain of logic used to go from Sunak's sentence to the claim that the sentence is transphobic. If I missed that post, I apologize. But I think no one has provided that logic in this thread. A lot of other things about trans people have been said, but those posts are speaking to different questions.

thanks!

 

[Little Dragon]

Ok, now we're getting somewhere! First of all, you just misquoted him, the clue is in the title of the thread. But let's let that go for now. So if I understand you correctly, you're saying that male and female are gender terms?

Man = Male and Woman = Female. In classical descriptive terms. Male and Female are very much gender terms.

 

[icehorse]

Sunak is an educated man, with access to the best advisers, medical and all other, in the Kingdom. As Prime Minister, it is his responsibility to be as informed as possible before he makes pronouncements and decisions. His avoidance ("phobic" can mean avoidance as well as fear) of the findings of decades of research and study of the trans phenomenon, in spite of all the information he has available to him -- and to do it publicly in the media -- can well be described as transphobic.

Again, I appreciate the time and energy you are putting into your posts, truly! But again, what you just said assumes the statement was transphobic and proceeds from there. If indeed Sunak's statement was transphobic, then I would agree with everything you just said. But no one in this thread has provided the underlying logic that proves what he said was transphobic.

 

[Little Dragon]

please tell me the post that explains the chain of logic used to go from Sunak's sentence to the claim that the sentence is transphobic. If I missed that post, I apologize. But I think no one has provided that logic in this thread. A lot of other things about trans people have been said, but those posts are speaking to different questions.

thanks!

Your opinion is not fact here. Sadly.