UK PM Rishi Sunak: "A man is a man, and a woman is a woman, that's just common sense"

[icehorse]

Biological and genetic gender are largely interchangeable terms. Most people whom have XY chromosomes manifest male sexual organs etc.
Although not always.

Otherwise that is fine yes. Not at all logically inconsistent though.

Are you saying that the term gender is both biological and a construct?

 

[sayak83]

I'm just going to throw this out there....

I'm male and I'm confused how another male can identify as female.
My wife is female and she is confused how another female can identify as male.
Then there are nonbinary that don't identify as either and then we are even more confused because we are like besides male and female, what else is there?

Our confusion/lack of understanding is seen by some as being transphobic which I think is BS because in reality those people are confused and don't fully understand it theirselves.

Your own confusion does not mean that they are confused too....your last claim that it is they who are confused and not you is unjustified.

 

[icehorse]

They are related concepts. Masculinity however is a relative and abstract idea. What some consider masculine others do not. Depending on cultural historical and other factors.

Is it fair to rephrase this by saying that masculinity is a construct?

 

[Little Dragon]

Are you saying that the term gender is both biological and a construct?

The societal definition of the average man, is a construct, one of tradition, history and culture and of course instinctual behaviours.

 

[We Never Know]

Your own confusion does not mean that they are confused too....your last claim that it is they who are confused and not you is unjustified.

"your last claim that it is they who are confused and not you is unjustified."

Never claimed that. I clamined they are confused too. 'because in reality those people are confused and don't fully understand it theirselves'

There are some transgenders/nonbianary that have said/acted as if they don't fully understand it.

 

[Orbit]

I'm just going to throw this out there....

I'm male and I'm confused how another male can identify as female.
My wife is female and she is confused how another female can identify as male.
Then there are nonbinary that don't identify as either and then we are even more confused because we are like besides male and female, what else is there?

Our confusion/lack of understanding is seen by some as being transphobic which I think is BS because in reality those people are confused and don't fully understand it theirselves.

Just because you don’t understand something, that doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist. And saying people don’t exist is pretty obnoxious. How would you like to be told that you don’t exist?

 

[Little Dragon]

Is it fair to rephrase this by saying that masculinity is a construct?

Mostly yes. Aggression for example, although notable and instinctual in males, is also found in females, just not as frequently, despite this, aggression is a characteristic usually connected with masculinity and manliness, not femininity.

 

[icehorse]

I do not have any interest in discussing or debating with people who do not, out front, tell me what his/her own stance on the topic (here regarding existence of transgender people as real categories that Sunak is denying) is.
In Hindu debating theory it is called the lowest and the most dishonest form of discussion.
I am not talking to Sunak. I am taking to you. What is your stance?

Of course I agree that trans gender people exist. Is that the question you're asking me?

How does Sunak's statement relate to the above?

 

[Little Dragon]

I clamined they are confused too. 'because in reality those people are confused and don't fully understand it theirselves'

If they were confused, then I doubt they would go through the ordeal of gender re assignment surgery (and hormone replacement therapy etc) and become less at risk from self harm after doing so. Their actions tell me that they are not confused, and know exactly what they want.

 

[sayak83]

"your last claim that it is they who are confused and not you is unjustified."

Never claimed that. I clamined they are confused too. 'because in reality those people are confused and don't fully understand it theirselves'

There are some transgenders/nonbianary that have said/acted as if they don't fully understand it.

There will always be people who have confusions....that does not mean the category itself is confusing
For example...many people have confusions and misunderstandings regarding calculus. That does not mean calculus as a topic is somehow not well understood.

 

[icehorse]

Mostly yes. Aggression for example, although notable and instinctual in males, is also found in females, just not as frequently, despite this, aggression is a characteristic usually connected with masculinity and manliness, not femininity.

agreed.

Ok, it feels to me like we're making some progress, thanks!

But there are still some outstanding questions:

Are you saying that gender is BOTH biological and social?
Are you saying that male/female are BOTH biological and social?

 

[sayak83]

Of course I agree that trans gender people exist. Is that the question you're asking me?

How does Sunak's statement relate to the above?

If a man is a man and a woman is a woman then how can transgender people (who have on anatomical gender and another physiological gender) exist?

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

I'm just going to throw this out there....

I'm male and I'm confused how another male can identify as female.
My wife is female and she is confused how another female can identify as male.
Then there are nonbinary that don't identify as either and then we are even more confused because we are like besides male and female, what else is there?

Our confusion/lack of understanding is seen by some as being transphobic which I think is BS because in reality those people are confused and don't fully understand it theirselves.

A confusion/lack of understanding isn't enough to be seen as transphobic. It's when someone presents that confusion/misunderstanding in a way where it seems that they are trying to convince others, that things are prone at being labelled as transphobic.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

How does his claim avoid decades of research?

Okay, now you are nit-picking. Avoid, ignore what does it matter? The research is there, and he has access to it, and a responsibility to consider it when making pronouncements as PM.

As I said earlier, no answer will ever satisfy you except the one you decided on before posting your OP. I tried, and I will not any longer. I've known your type all my life -- a headstrong inability to hear anything you don't want to hear. Not worth my time. I put you on ignore some time ago, then relented. Back you go.

 

[Little Dragon]

agreed.

Ok, it feels to me like we're making some progress, thanks!

But there are still some outstanding questions:

Are you saying that gender is BOTH biological and social?
Are you saying that male/female are BOTH biological and social?

Yes I suppose (he said hesitantly) but really I can ignore all that. Just by treating people how they want to be treated. If there is a conflict, such as in say the world of sport, were people are not happy that a 6ft strapping muscle bound warrior bod who was born male but had sexual reassignment to become a trans woman, could in theory enter in certain competitive sports and absolutely destroy the biologically female participants.
I can understand that, it's the only genuine issue as I can see it, in which people can complain about trans equity with some degree of validity.
I'd just say level the field somehow then. Like the handicap system in golf.

 

[icehorse]

If a man is a man and a woman is a woman then how can transgender people (who have on anatomical gender and another physiological gender) exist?

You've made sort of nested claims and questions here, so I will try to unpack them. If I make a mistake, I apologize, let me know how I misunderstood you:

- can you clarify or distinguish between "anatomical gender" and "physiological gender"?
- are you implying that gender is a biological term?
- are you saying that we must restrict our understanding to there being only two categories?

 

[icehorse]

Okay, now you are nit-picking. Avoid, ignore what does it matter? The research is there, and he has access to it, and a responsibility to consider it when making pronouncements as PM.

As I said earlier, no answer will ever satisfy you except the one you decided on before posting your OP. I tried, and I will not any longer. I've known your type all my life -- a headstrong inability to hear anything you don't want to hear. Not worth my time. I put you on ignore some time ago, then relented. Back you go.

I'm happy with either "avoid" or "ignore", I was NOT nit-picking!

How does the research logically tie into the claim that his comment is transphobic? There is an unspoken chain of logic in the "transphobic" claim that I'm trying to understand.

 

[We Never Know]

Just because you don’t understand something, that doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist. And saying people don’t exist is pretty obnoxious. How would you like to be told that you don’t exist?

"don’t understand something, that doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist"

I never said that.

 

[icehorse]

Yes I suppose (he said hesitantly) but really I can ignore all that.

We made a lot of progress here, and I thank you for the energy you put into this!

I disagree with how you're defining these terms, but I appreciate your honesty!

As for your other thoughts, the issue is much broader than sports. It includes all manner of safe spaces for women, healthcare concerns, and not-so-hidden misogyny.

 

[We Never Know]

If they were confused, then I doubt they would go through the ordeal of gender re assignment surgery (and hormone replacement therapy etc) and become less at risk from self harm after doing so. Their actions tell me that they are not confused, and know exactly what they want.

Are you claiming they completely understand what they are going through?