Unfair opinions about Islam :(

[Poeticus]

Hmmm.
Well, how about peaceful Muslims, like my friends who came to the states from Syria? I love them, they are generous, loving, joyful...they condemn ISIS, and all of the violence that extremists support claiming that it is on behalf of Islam. Do you believe that they choose to ignore the dark parts of their religion's history?

I ask that, because when I was a Catholic...(I was indoctrinated into the faith from childhood)...I either ignored or explained away the 'inconvenient truths' of my religion.

Here's something that will boggle the crap out of your mind:

There are tons and tons of Muslims that are truly secular and abhor violence of any kind. These are practically no different from your average folks here in the States: they vote, they pay their taxes, they work, they go to school, they watch Game of Thrones, they chillax, they party, and chill some more. There are tons and tons of Muslims that are like this. You just never really hear about them because of two big reasons: the media doesn't give a flying crap about 'em; and they are often ridiculed and condemned by the religious rigorists of their own communities.

Now we all know that the media doesn't really care about them, there's no surprise there. But what many of us don't know is how they are often condemned unnecessarily by the members of their own religious groups. Ever tried being a Muslim female dating a non-Muslim male? I have numerous Muslim female friends that have said that they have had to suppress so many crushes because they are often scared of what their brothers or fathers will do for being with a non-Muslim boy. Ever had a Muslim friend get caught by the orthodox members of their communities for celebrating festivals like Holi and Diwali? Sh*t ain't pretty, I tell ya, holmes.

What's worse is the amount of rejection and ostracizing so many of these Muslims face if they 1) come out of the closet 2) detail that they don't think the Quran is infallible 3) and wish to come out culturally Muslim but not religiously Islamic, or a simple, "I am no longer a Muslim". And before someone says that this is cultural and not Islamic, it's imperative to understand that culture and religion often go hand in hand in communities that operate under religio-cultural implementations regarding societal interaction and conduct, hence the compound "religio-cultural" (i.e., "ethno-religious").

 

[LuisDantas]

Hmmm.
Well, how about peaceful Muslims, like my friends who came to the states from Syria? I love them, they are generous, loving, joyful...they condemn ISIS, and all of the violence that extremists support claiming that it is on behalf of Islam. Do you believe that they choose to ignore the dark parts of their religion's history?

I ask that, because when I was a Catholic...(I was indoctrinated into the faith from childhood)...I either ignored or explained away the 'inconvenient truths' of my religion. And celebrated the 'good parts.'

The existence of whole peaceful communities of Muslims is certainly welcome, but all the same poor evidence that the religion itself is conductive to peace.

Violence and war are dangerous endeavours. People tend to naturally avoid them, with good reason.

Meanwhile, there is no honest, sincere way to ignore or disregard that quite a lot of violence claims - from all appearances sincerely - to draw justification and/or inspiration from the Quran. Worst of all, there is very little that can be done to convince them otherwise.

So yes, I must agree that the claim that Islam is a religion of peace falls squarely into the area of wishful thinking, well-intentioned as it often is. It is not automatically incompatible with peace, but that is a poor claim for a religion to make.

 

[Deidre]

Here's something that will boggle the crap out of your mind:

There are tons and tons of Muslims that are truly secular and abhor violence of any kind. These are practically no different from your average folks here in the States: they vote, they pay their taxes, they work, they go to school, they watch Game of Thrones, they chillax, they party, and chill some more. There are tons and tons of Muslims that are like this. You just never really hear about them because of two big reasons: the media doesn't give a flying crap about 'em; and they are often ridiculed and condemned by the religious rigorists of their own communities.

Now we all know that the media doesn't really care about them, there's no surprise there. But what many of us don't know is how they are often condemned unnecessarily by the members of their own religious groups. Ever tried being a Muslim female dating a non-Muslim female? I have numerous Muslim female friends that have said that they have had to suppress so many crushes because they are often scared of what their brothers or fathers will do for being with a non-Muslim boy. Ever had a Muslim friend get caught by the orthodox members of their communities for celebrating festivals like Holi and Diwali? Sh*t ain't pretty, I tell ya, holmes.

What's worse is the amount of rejection and ostracizing so many of these Muslims face if they 1) come out of the closet 2) detail that they don't think the Quran is infallible 3) and wish to come out culturally Muslim but not religiously Islamic, or a simple, "I am no longer a Muslim". And before someone says that this is cultural and not Islamic, it's imperative to understand that culture and religion often go hand in hand in communities that operate under religio-cultural implementations of conduct, hence the compound "religio-cultural" (i.e., "ethno-religious").

This post hit home. While I appreciate the history everyone is conveying here, it's hard to separate the political issues from the religious ones, at least for me now. (and sometimes, they are one and the same)

But, this...I actually do hear that from one of my Muslim friends. She is not 'permitted' to date a non-Muslim man. Granted, she is relatively devout in terms of prayer practice, fasting, etc...but she feels that she should be able to date anyone she wishes. Her parents (and grandparents) think otherwise. She tells me that a convert might not go through the same things, since a convert doesn't have that same familial pressure.

Sadly interesting. (thank you)

 

[Sees]

I agree that one could read the Bible or the Qur'an...and if applying literality to it, could come away thinking that God is one messed up deity. lol But, as we know...there are a number of interpretations, etc as to how to view these books. Having said that, one of the things that doesn't let me move further forward into Islam, is the idea that the Qur'an is considered the infallible word of God. I don't believe it's an infallible/flawless book, when mankind put it together. There is a lot of beauty in the Qur'an...a lot of difficult passages, as well. I can look at the Qur'an, as I once did the Bible...as a collection of stories, that has merit, but is not infallible.

I can choose to believe that God is infallible. But, not a book about him. Not sure why that is a necessary tenet in the Abrahamic faiths.

My 24hrs of a self-imposed break from Islam threads is over My thoughts on infallible holy books -

It is the One Ring to rule them All aspect. Absolute authority in full effect.

One True God, One True Messenger, One True Book, One True/Correct Set of Rules, and on and on...One True Interpretation if necessary.

With opinions of men seeking the last word/power, people can always say so and so is just another man...what does he know, why listen to him? Some realized if you use divine authority you can convince others more easily. You can have a whole gigantic group of people follow you while believing you speak the One Truth from the One True Source itself. For it to work as thoroughly as possible, dissent and questioning has to be kept down to a minimum. The man behind the curtain can't be revealed so to speak.

From this we get infallible scripture. One Ring to rule them all can only ever partially tolerate and be at peace with the plurality and multiplicity of reality. You can have you religion, but your Gods are actually devils. You can have your opinion, but your an impious blasphemer who will burn if you don't repent!

See the "choices"?

Infallible, set-in-stone decrees used to control need infallible books to document and disseminate the One True Way.

Just my theory/thoughts...

 

[Aupmanyav]

It is painfully obvious that Pakistan and India have not reached a situation of peaceful side-by-side existence after partition. And that there is even enough mistrust to make the mobilization for nuclear weapons a reality is a sad sign of how far we are from that much-needed peace.

Luis, the India Pakistan story is like this -

1. Pakistan wanted Kashmir because Kashmir had a Muslim majority. But Kashmir wanted to be an independent nation (and Sheikh Abdullah wanted to be its ruler). So, he delayed the merger decision. Pakistan could not wait. It sent its military and mercenaries to occupy Kashmir. This force over-ran a large portion of Kashmir and reached the outskirts of the capital Srinagar. The culture of the people of Kashmir valley is different from that of its portion outside the valley. The mercenaries committed atrocities against all Kashmiris, Hindus and Muslims. Sheikh Abdullah could not stop the Pakistani invasion with the local militia, so a request was sent to India to intervene. India said that they will intervene only if Kashmir agreed to merge with India. Sheikh Abdullah put several conditions for the merger which were accepted by India (that forms the controversial Article 370 of our constitution), and the Kashmir king signed the letter of accession.

2. Bangladesh suffered discrimination as a province of Pakistan. Bangladesh Awami Leaugue came up with a six-point formula and fought the 1970 elections with it (Six point movement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"In the elections of 1970, the Awami League won 167 of 169 East Pakistan seats in the National Assembly but none of West Pakistan's 138 seats. It also won 288 of the 300 provincial assembly seats in East Pakistan. This win gave the Awami League a healthy majority in the 313-seat National Assembly and placed it in a position to establish a national government without a coalition partner. This was not acceptable to the political leaders of West Pakistan who feared the 6 points were a step towards breaking up the country and led directly to the events of the Bangladesh Liberation War." (Bangladesh Awami League - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Awami League Leader Sheikh Mujibur-Rehman was denied Pakistan premiership and was arrested by the Pakistan army on March 25, 1971. Due to atrocities of Pakistani army, millions of Bangladeshis sought refuge in India and continued their fight against Pakistani army. India could not accept such a huge inflow and helped the Bangladeshi people in their fight. The Pakistani army was defeated, some 90,000 Pakistani soldiers surrendered to Indian army, and finally Bangladesh became an indipendant nation.

Since then, Pakistani army has been engaged in a covert war with India by whatever means they could. It includes sending terrorists into India, inciting Indian Muslims against the government in the name of Islam, or sending counterfeit money and drugs to India. Unfortunately, all their efforts have boom-ranged on them.

 

[Smart_Guy]

I understand that. I do not mean that all Muslims are fiends. But the reasonable ones, though in majority, do not have any influence over events. And what is written in Qur'an or how Mohammad acted does not give the right model - "Good to know that you have killed the non-believers", etc. If Allah is all merciful, why should he punish the non-believers? Why can't he live in peace with them? And if Allah can't live in peace with the non-believers, how can one accept the Muslims to do that?

And I don't blame you for the idea you have about the Quran and Muhammad. I know the instances in which the two attacked non believers, and I admit, having them standing alone gave me that same impression you're having. The past was lawless and people lived in continuous wars and fears. No huge allies were there and no advanced technologies to utilize for peace purposes. I really do not know what you and me would have done if we were in place of Muhammad when he had to give difficult decisions. History of Islam has different versions, some by Muslims, some be the Israelite (if I get the word right), and some by modern historians, so creditability can be questionable, and I'm not good enough to discuss about that any further than the above unfortunately, but the Quran is clear cut and has verses that haven't changed ever since they were revealed, verses like Quran 60:8, Quran 29:46, Quran 16:125, Quran 16:126... are some examples that control and govern verses that sound harsh. The Quran is a whole unit that we cannot take some verses and leave other to give a judgement.

 

[LuisDantas]

Thanks, Aupmanyav.

I take it that by "boom-ranged" you mean "boomeranged"?

 

[gsa]

Hmmm.
Well, how about peaceful Muslims, like my friends who came to the states from Syria? I love them, they are generous, loving, joyful...they condemn ISIS, and all of the violence that extremists support claiming that it is on behalf of Islam. Do you believe that they choose to ignore the dark parts of their religion's history?

I ask that, because when I was a Catholic...(I was indoctrinated into the faith from childhood)...I either ignored or explained away the 'inconvenient truths' of my religion. And celebrated the 'good parts.'

Yes. Many Muslims aren't even aware of the religion's history, any more than many Christians are aware of their own religion's history.

These religions have violent, repressive histories, centered on the worship of an equally violent, repressive God (who is strangely described as beneficent, merciful and loving at the same time). Plenty of people who are Christians and Muslims are generous, loving and joyful people as you say, but let's be clear about the historical record and the contents of their scriptures.

 

[Theweirdtophat]

People have said that Muslims don't condemn Islamic terrorism, but what about what's happening in Africa with Chad and Nigeria going against Boko Haram and a lot of Nigerians and Chadians are Muslim. Over 3/4 of Jordan is Muslim and they despise ISIS for what they'v been doing? I mean what more proof do you want? Muslims aren't bad. it's the perverted Muslims who twist Islam to suit their needs that are dangerous.

 

[knghtkings]

Well I am sorry to inform you I totally disagree with any form of Sheri Law, Which Muslim force down any town they start to populate, which include the total destruction of all pets within the town limits as "THEY" deem them unclean. Their Koran is a book of hate some examples
Surah II 35 O Believers, prescribed for you is retaliation, touching the slain: freeman for freeman, slave for slave, female for female, ...in retaliation there is life for you, man possessed of minds, haply you will be godfearing.

also 'And fight in the way of God with those who fight with you....and slay them wherever you come upon them, and expel them from where they expelled you; (your own) persecution is more grievous than slaying (others)

Surah IV 39 Take not to yourselves friends of them (the disbelievers) until they emigrate in the way of God;then, if they turn their backs, take them, and slay them wherever you find them.

I could go on as this book is full of hate.

I further dislike muslums entering stores with their face covered they could be men dressed to hide the bombs strapped to themselves.

I believe when we are in their country we must observe their laws.
And when they are in the USA they observe our laws and not try to change them.
.
I also think the USA should return to the days when we coated all amunitions in pig fat. So Muslums will think twice before they attack Americans

 

[Theweirdtophat]

Yes. Many Muslims aren't even aware of the religion's history, any more than many Christians are aware of their own religion's history.

These religions have violent, repressive histories, centered on the worship of an equally violent, repressive God (who is strangely described as beneficent, merciful and loving at the same time). Plenty of people who are Christians and Muslims are generous, loving and joyful people as you say, but let's be clear about the historical record and the contents of their scriptures.

Many Muslims and Christians are good but you don't judge them just because of their history. Lots of religions had violent pasts, not just these two and Islam and Christianity back then is not the same as it his now.

Well I am sorry to inform you I totally disagree with any form of Sheri Law, Which Muslim force down any town they start to populate, which include the total destruction of all pets within the town limits as "THEY" deem them unclean. Their Koran is a book of hate some examples
Surah II 35 O Believers, prescribed for you is retaliation, touching the slain: freeman for freeman, slave for slave, female for female, ...in retaliation there is life for you, man possessed of minds, haply you will be godfearing.

also 'And fight in the way of God with those who fight with you....and slay them wherever you come upon them, and expel them from where they expelled you; (your own) persecution is more grievous than slaying (others)

Surah IV 39 Take not to yourselves friends of them (the disbelievers) until they emigrate in the way of God;then, if they turn their backs, take them, and slay them wherever you find them.

I could go on as this book is full of hate.

I further dislike muslums entering stores with their face covered they could be men dressed to hide the bombs strapped to themselves.

I believe when we are in their country we must observe their laws.
And when they are in the USA they observe our laws and not try to change them.
.
I also think the USA should return to the days when we coated all amunitions in pig fat. So Muslums will think twice before they attack Americans

All you've read are the bad parts of the Quran and what you can't couldn't be further from the truth. Most Muslims don't do terrorist activities. Most people in GENERAL don't this. It's this kind of behavior that hurts innocent Muslims and believe me I personally know good Muslims and many condemn such activities which is also in the Quran. Jordan, Chad and Nigeria, all three that have significant Muslim populations despise ISIS for what they've done.

 

[Sees]

Oh goodness...

 

[LuisDantas]

People have said that Muslims don't condemn Islamic terrorism, but what about what's happening in Africa with Chad and Nigeria going against Boko Haram and a lot of Nigerians and Chadians are Muslim. Over 3/4 of Jordan is Muslim and they despise ISIS for what they'v been doing? I mean what more proof do you want? Muslims aren't bad. it's the perverted Muslims who twist Islam to suit their needs that are dangerous.

I don't think we disagree on that as much as you seem to believe.

I am however worried about how difficult it is to effectively challenge Islam-inspired violence, even and perhaps most of all when it is other Muslims attempting it.

 

[gsa]

Many Muslims and Christians are good but you don't judge them just because of their history. Lots of religions had violent pasts, not just these two and Islam and Christianity back then is not the same as it his now.

I apply a rebuttable presumption when evaluating religion, since religion is a mix of cultural, ideological, familial and geographical factors. So as a rule I don't assume that Muslims and Christians are hateful, violent and intolerant twits; I assume the opposite. However, it is a rebuttable presumption, and it is of course possible that they are hateful, violent and intolerable twits and, furthermore, that this is partially or wholly attributable to their religious beliefs.

 

[psychoslice]

Please believe me, it really really hurts me that I cannot do anything concrete about it

But surely if there is thousands that think like you, you must be able to do something ?.

 

[psychoslice]

People don't just forget to discriminate in a generation or two. We should be careful to learn and point out how typical the discrimination is and how accepted by the general society it is. And, most of all, what the general trend is.

That maybe so, but there is still backward thinking, and we still need those who point this out until its completely gone, after all history has a habit of repeating itself.

 

[Deidre]

you seem like a good man, smart guy.

Please believe me, it really really hurts me that I cannot do anything concrete about it

 

[Deidre]

My 24hrs of a self-imposed break from Islam threads is over My thoughts on infallible holy books -

It is the One Ring to rule them All aspect. Absolute authority in full effect.

One True God, One True Messenger, One True Book, One True/Correct Set of Rules, and on and on...One True Interpretation if necessary.

With opinions of men seeking the last word/power, people can always say so and so is just another man...what does he know, why listen to him? Some realized if you use divine authority you can convince others more easily. You can have a whole gigantic group of people follow you while believing you speak the One Truth from the One True Source itself. For it to work as thoroughly as possible, dissent and questioning has to be kept down to a minimum. The man behind the curtain can't be revealed so to speak.

From this we get infallible scripture. One Ring to rule them all can only ever partially tolerate and be at peace with the plurality and multiplicity of reality. You can have you religion, but your Gods are actually devils. You can have your opinion, but your an impious blasphemer who will burn if you don't repent!

See the "choices"?

Infallible, set-in-stone decrees used to control need infallible books to document and disseminate the One True Way.

Just my theory/thoughts...

you make a lot of good points, yes. religion has never been for me based on objective evidence, but rather...subjective reality. it's all it ever can be. when people treat religion like science, that it has solid absolute evidence to support it, and that based on that ''assumption''...others should willingly join the religion, too...is when we see big problems. Faith, spirituality, and religion are all important to me, I didn't feel entirely comfortable as an atheist...but, I still can't prove that a deity exists, just because I feel a particular way. To me, religion and faith should remain private...if someone feels a connection to a higher power through a certain faith or religion, so long as it doesn't harm anyone else or infiltrate itself into others' lives...so be it. But religion is very intrusive for so many, unfortunately.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Just wanted to add one line: 'India has got over its partition, but Pakistan has not got over its partition' - I am pointing to separation of Bangladesh.

 

[gsa]

you make a lot of good points, yes. religion has never been for me based on objective evidence, but rather...subjective reality. it's all it ever can be. when people treat religion like science, that it has solid absolute evidence to support it, and that based on that ''assumption''...others should willingly join the religion, too...is when we see big problems. Faith, spirituality, and religion are all important to me, I didn't feel entirely comfortable as an atheist...but, I still can't prove that a deity exists, just because I feel a particular way. To me, religion and faith should remain private...if someone feels a connection to a higher power through a certain faith or religion, so long as it doesn't harm anyone else or infiltrate itself into others' lives...so be it. But religion is very intrusive for so many, unfortunately.

This is a very modern understanding of religion, in light of secularism and Enlightenment values. Prior to the secularization period, religion consumed public life.

Christianity fought that trend very hard, but it lost. Islam has yet to really confront it.