Unfair opinions about Islam :(

[Aupmanyav]

.. but the Quran is clear cut and has verses that haven't changed ever since they were revealed, verses like Quran 60:8, Quran 29:46, Quran 16:125, Quran 16:126... are some examples that control and govern verses that sound harsh. The Quran is a whole unit that we cannot take some verses and leave other to give a judgement.

I understand your reluctance to engage in a lengthy discussion about whether the Qur'an is soft or harsh, but the very presence of harsh verses creates an unpleasant picture. But as per your wish, I will not get in to the discussion of which verses control what verses. Let us once again recite Surat al-Kafirun and part in peace.

 

[Deidre]

This is a very modern understanding of religion, in light of secularism and Enlightenment values. Prior to the secularization period, religion consumed public life.

Christianity fought that trend very hard, but it lost. Islam has yet to really confront it.

Also, I'm readily aware that my ability to practice any religion as I wish, or not at all...that special freedom is mainly because I live in a country that separates religion from government. Which is a necessary freedom that I wish all could experience.

 

[gsa]

Also, I'm readily aware that my ability to practice any religion as I wish, or not at all...that special freedom is mainly because I live in a country that separates religion from government. Which is a necessary freedom that I wish all could experience.

Which is good. But we have to be honest: That's not consistent with the history of monotheism at least.

Monotheists believed that you risked the wrath of god by tolerating things that offended him, including the worship of other gods, the presence of gay men and lesbians, heretics, etc. For monotheists that believed this, the risk of tolerating nonconformists was divine punishment and wrath, in this life or the next. By killing them or driving them away, you avoided collective punishment.

 

[Deidre]

Which is good. But we have to be honest: That's not consistent with the history of monotheism at least.

Monotheists believed that you risked the wrath of god by tolerating things that offended him, including the worship of other gods, the presence of gay men and lesbians, heretics, etc. For monotheists that believed this, the risk of tolerating nonconformists was divine punishment and wrath, in this life or the next. By killing them or driving them away, you avoided collective punishment.

Like so much else, why doesn't religion 'evolve?' lol
It's a rhetorical question. I think. ^_^

I mean, when I've been reading the Qur'an, I find myself thinking...ok, these 'laws' were for another time, because of the problems of that time. Those problems shouldn't exist today. Muhammad was defending himself, his land, his faith from those who wanted to kill him. Were his words for that time, and that time only, and not for this current time? Now there are timeless verses and attitudes within the Qur'an and the Bible for example, such as being generous, charitable, loving even when it's not convenient, forgiving, etc...those are principles that are timeless, and can be seen as absolute and universal truth. The parts that resonate with me, but the darker parts that people believe extremists are clinging to? I'm not seeing the relevance in a modern world. (my world)

 

[gsa]

Like so much else, why doesn't religion 'evolve?' lol
It's a rhetorical question. I think. ^_^

I mean, when I've been reading the Qur'an, I find myself thinking...ok, these 'laws' were for another time, because of the problems of that time. Those problems shouldn't exist today. Muhammad was defending himself, his land, his faith from those who wanted to kill him. Were his words for that time, and that time only, and not for this current time? Now there are timeless verses and attitudes within the Qur'an and the Bible for example, such as being generous, charitable, loving even when it's not convenient, forgiving, etc...those are principles that are timeless, and can be seen as absolute and universal truth. The parts that resonate with me, but the darker parts that people believe extremists are clinging to? I'm not seeing the relevance in a modern world. (my world)

Because they aren't meant for the modern world. I mean, the gospels depict Jesus doing things that any sensible person would fine insane. His mindset was probably more in line with the Taliban than with modern Christians. Muhammad is no better or worse in my opinion; he just avoided crucifixion and had contemporaries record his thoughts on various subjects.

But if you reject Quranic infallibility, including the timeless application of all of it as the Word of God, you're part of a small minority in Islam. And there are plenty of ex-Muslims who believed Islam was more open and could not be reduced to fundamentalism, too: Just read the story of Rabab Khaja, who believed Islam was the religion of peace (or better yet, listen to her).

If it is about finding inspiration in religious works, or believing in the divine, or the hope of an afterlife, there's no need to be limited to a tradition that requires acceptance of things you know to be deeply immoral. Plenty of happy theists, deists, polytheists and pantheists out there. Dance with the Sufis if you like, but remember that this tradition is every bit as restrictive as the one you came from.

 

[Deidre]

But if you reject Quranic infallibility, including the timeless application of all of it as the Word of God, you're part of a small minority in Islam. And there are plenty of ex-Muslims who believed Islam was more open and could not be reduced to fundamentalism, too: Just read the story of Rabab Khaja, who believed Islam was the religion of peace (or better yet, listen to her).
.

Wow, I just read that -- thank you, gsa.

This from the article:

Harris also said in the same source: "The earth is now home to about 1.4 billion Muslims, many of whom believe that one day you and I will either convert to Islam, live in subjugation to a Muslim caliphate, or be put to death for our unbelief." And to me, this is a warning that I hope many pay attention to, and not be swept in the tide of civil mentalities. If the West cares for its national security, it should deal with Islam in its own mentality. Not with soft politics, not with imposing democracy, democracy can only bring justice in a secular society, in an egalitarian society that believes in personal rights of its people, the one that respects the rights of the minorities as much as it does the majority. Democracy without secularism can only give birth to the likes of Hammas.

That just struck me as particularly interesting, because I never thought democracy would 'work' in a society that imposes Sharia Law. Her story is sad and inspiring all in one. I can only fathom what her life has been life, women are literally property in some parts of the world. That still astounds me.

I have wondered this all of my life since childhood...why are women looked as such in these religions? In the Abrahamic faiths, could it all stem from Genesis, and was that story entirely made up to support the misogyny of the time? (I don't believe the creation story of Genesis, or the 'fall,' or original sin, or any of that as literal truth) But, the story illustrates a divide between men and women, a woman (Eve) tempting a man (Adam) into sin...and women are punished for the leading of mankind astray. Adam is punished also, but because the creation story illustrates woman 'coming from' man...she has a lesser status.

Even if it makes some here uncomfortable to read the article from the above link, I encourage everyone to.

 

[Lyndon]

Very few of these Islamic countries governments are still using Sharia law, its the religious extremists that want the government to use Sharia law, I think Saudi Arabia is one of the only countries still using it, its a very popular misconception going around the West, and the media is not helping the situation by spreading misinformation or allowing misinformation to go unchecked.

As to the treatment of women, Mohammad was something of a feminist, by 650AD standards, he gave more rights to women than Old testament Israelites did and more rights than the pagan Arabs or the Christians in 650AD. For instance he gave women the right to divorce their husbands and demanded the husbands support their wives for a time after divorce., this was unheard of at the time.The problem is when people think that that 650AD rights for women are good enough for 2015AD.

 

[Deidre]

Very few of these Islamic countries governments are still using Sharia law, its the religious extremists that want the government to use Sharia law, I think Saudi Arabia is one of the only countries still using it, its a very popular misconception going around the West, and the media is not helping the situation by spreading misinformation or allowing misinformation to go unchecked.

Yes, agree to a point--the article above sort of talks about that. There is a podcast that I'll listen to at a later date...

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Wow, I just read that -- thank you, gsa.

This from the article:

Harris also said in the same source: "The earth is now home to about 1.4 billion Muslims, many of whom believe that one day you and I will either convert to Islam, live in subjugation to a Muslim caliphate, or be put to death for our unbelief." And to me, this is a warning that I hope many pay attention to, and not be swept in the tide of civil mentalities. If the West cares for its national security, it should deal with Islam in its own mentality. Not with soft politics, not with imposing democracy, democracy can only bring justice in a secular society, in an egalitarian society that believes in personal rights of its people, the one that respects the rights of the minorities as much as it does the majority. Democracy without secularism can only give birth to the likes of Hammas.

That just struck me as particularly interesting, because I never thought democracy would 'work' in a society that imposes Sharia Law. Her story is sad and inspiring all in one. I can only fathom what her life has been life, women are literally property in some parts of the world. That still astounds me.

I have wondered this all of my life since childhood...why are women looked as such in these religions? In the Abrahamic faiths, could it all stem from Genesis, and was that story entirely made up to support the misogyny of the time? (I don't believe the creation story of Genesis, or the 'fall,' or original sin, or any of that as literal truth) But, the story illustrates a divide between men and women, a woman (Eve) tempting a man (Adam) into sin...and women are punished for the leading of mankind astray. Adam is punished also, but because the creation story illustrates woman 'coming from' man...she has a lesser status.

Even if it makes some here uncomfortable to read the article from the above link, I encourage everyone to.

It's because sexist men wrote those stories down and started those religions.

 

[Deidre]

It's because sexist men wrote those stories down and started those religions.

Yes, that is what it seems like. Do you believe that the NT is literal truth, as a practicing Catholic?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Yes, that is what it seems like. Do you believe that the NT is literal truth, as a practicing Catholic?

To be honest, I'm not really much of a Catholic. I keep trying and trying but there's too many things I disagree with and too many questions where there are no answers. It's stupid that I keep torturing myself like this when I know of the sickening history of the Abrahamic religions more than the general population does (I do a lot of research). I know what they've done to women, indigenous peoples the world over, LGBT people, people of different religions and even dissenters within their own religions, etc. I am also very angry with the Catholics I know for their hypocrisy and failure to offer help when my mom and I needed it. So I should just stop bothering with it.

So, at this point, I would agree with what @gsaseeker said in his post and warn you away from the Abrahamic faiths all together. I highly doubt you will the completion you seek in Islam just as you could not find it in Christianity. It's best to go your own way, really.

 

[Deidre]

To be honest, I'm not really much of a Catholic. I keep trying and trying but there's too many things I disagree with and too many questions where there are no answers. It's stupid that I keep torturing myself like this when I know of the sickening history of the Abrahamic religions more than the general population does (I do a lot of research). I know what they've done to women, indigenous peoples the world over, LGBT people, people of different religions and even dissenters within their own religions, etc. So I should just stop bothering with it.

Maybe you find a sense of spirituality which isn't always easy to pinpoint or explain (even to one's self), within the RCC?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Maybe you find a sense of spirituality which isn't always easy to pinpoint or explain (even to one's self), within the RCC?

Yes. I enjoy the liturgy, the art, the idea of a deity dying to show his love for his creation, and other aspects. Some parts of it are probably stemming from my depression, to be honest.

 

[Deidre]

Yes. I enjoy the liturgy, the art, the idea of a deity dying to show his love for his creation, and other aspects. Some parts of it are probably stemming from my depression, to be honest.

Oh, I see. Yea, there are things I miss about the RCC. The mass itself is quite special. Like really no other service in other Christian churches. Not knocking other services lol...but, there was something special about knowing you were at a mass that was being practiced all over the world in the same exact way, albeit in different languages/different regions. The solidarity of the RCC is pretty on top.

It's ok to feel good from faith, you know. I never thought I'd gravitate back to faith...let alone theism, but...sometimes, we just feel what we feel. No explanations. I'm sorry you're going through depression.

 

[gsa]

Yes. I enjoy the liturgy, the art, the idea of a deity dying to show his love for his creation, and other aspects. Some parts of it are probably stemming from my depression, to be honest.

My partner was raised Catholic, believes none of it, but still does the rituals when he enters a church. I think you can make of it what you want to make of it, particularly if you are born into it or raised in it.

 

[psychoslice]

Born and raised in any religion is called conditioning.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Oh, I see. Yea, there are things I miss about the RCC. The mass itself is quite special. Like really no other service in other Christian churches. Not knocking other services lol...but, there was something special about knowing you were at a mass that was being practiced all over the world in the same exact way, albeit in different languages/different regions. The solidarity of the RCC is pretty on top.

It's ok to feel good from faith, you know. I never thought I'd gravitate back to faith...let alone theism, but...sometimes, we just feel what we feel. No explanations. I'm sorry you're going through depression.

My problem is that I'm disgusted with the history of it, don't agree with many of the core doctrines and throw up a middle finger at many of the teachings as is.

My partner was raised Catholic, believes none of it, but still does the rituals when he enters a church. I think you can make of it what you want to make of it, particularly if you are born into it or raised in it.

I actually converted to it as a teenager. It was my idea. I tried so hard to live up to it all. I was part of the Diocesan Youth Council (until I was kicked off for missing a few meetings when my grandfather died and we were going through hell at my house), went to the National Catholic Youth Conference, was an altar server, argued with many of my peers defending Catholicism, etc.

 

[psychoslice]

Wow those eye's are ugly, and scary.

 

[Smart_Guy]

But surely if there is thousands that think like you, you must be able to do something ?.

Good point. I believe you heard of those wanted to make a difference and what they got in return. It is unfortunate I cannot afford risking myself because I have family to take care of.

you seem like a good man, smart guy.

Ma'am, you are too kind yourself

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Wow those eye's are ugly, and scary.

You mean my sig pic? That's Riddick. He has something called "eyeshine" and can see in the dark. His eyes are beautiful.