Unfair opinions about Islam :(

[JayJayDee]

I guess it's a prophecy that fulfills itself no matter what your beliefs are if they are somewhat different to the mainstream in your society.

It's not just about being "different" per se......it's about being the kind of "different" that God wants us to be...and if THAT is what makes us stand out from the mainstream, then it is a difference recognised by him, not just ourselves. How was Jesus "different"? What was the response of his fellow Jews to what he taught?

Do we worship to simply please ourselves? If we do, then what is the point? If it doesn't please God, then it is wasted.

 

[corynski]

To me, religion should be a private thing, I choose to view a god in my own way, and if my own views resonate with a particular faith, what harm is this? But, the problem is...perhaps, Sharia Law, mainly.

Excuse me, but are you speaking of living in a Muslim culture and having your 'own' views about religion, and of having your 'own' views about Islam? I may be wrong but I don't think that's how it works. And if you were in a marriage with a Muslim, it's my understanding you don't have much freedom there especially.

And you say.... "I'm not so much interested in support, as much as I just dislike people believing falsehoods about a religion." Well, what are these 'falsehoods'? And how do you know they are falsehoods?

And yes, the problem may be Sharia Law. Let's take a look at Sharia Law........

 

[LuisDantas]

I couldn't disagree more. I am very happy that many Jews, Christians, and Muslims make a practice of ignoring the less savory aspects of their Scriptures. If they all took it more literally the world would be way more messed up.

I can't help but agree with every word of that.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..And if you were in a marriage with a Muslim, it's my understanding you don't have much freedom there especially..

The prophet Muhammad, peace be with him is reported to have said "This life is like a prison for a true believer, and a paradise for the disbeliever" ..

Janaat (the paradise in life after death) is superior to ANY freedom & enjoyment in this life ..
We all have to make sacrifices .. both men & women .. may Allah accept our deeds, Ameen

 

[gsa]

I guess it's a prophecy that fulfills itself no matter what your beliefs are if they are somewhat different to the mainstream in your society.

In fact, I see it as the entire point of these religions for at least a substantial minority of their adherents. "Be holy, as I am holy," or set apart, and know that you are righteous, and that those who disagree with you are unholy, not set apart. And how does one know they are on the straight and narrow? Why, when people react poorly to your arrogant displays of false piety.

 

[Deidre]

Yes, religion can have the ability to divide, and separate...but only if the 'adherent' lets it. I think the danger of any religion, or religion in general is not in so much if the followers define their own lives using it, but if they attempt to define others' lives using it. That is probably what causes the most problems with believers and non-believers. Much of what religions teach, tends to give a person a sense of belonging, and then they look at those outside of that faith as 'not' belonging. It is subtle in how it can work that way. And Islam isn't that much different in that regard, from what I've read. Having said that, it can offer fulfillment to those who seek it, if you don't look to use it against others. Islam isn't the problem when it comes to groups like ISIS, and the like...it is how they view Islam, how they 'use' Islam...it is more of a tool to control others, and rule over others, than it is anything else.

People who aren't that familiar with Islam, know no Muslims in their social circles, etc...may view Islam strictly from the news snippets, and think that it is a violent cult masquerading as a religion. But, that is not Islam. The people doing those things say they follow Islam, but the Catholic priests who molested kids called themselves Catholics, too. Once upon a time, Christians in the U.S., were once slave owners, etc...So...people use religion all over the world to hide behind their own depravity. That 'problem' isn't exclusive in Islam. That's a human problem.

 

[Deidre]

Prophet Muhammad pbuh didnt speak from his own desires when he said the nations will attack muslims for their religion just like hungry people attacks food.
It is characteristic of the Straight Path that christians, jews, atheists , apostates, and polytheists are united against Islam.

Jesus said a similar thing...'the world will hate you, because it hated me first.'

I want to be careful...ridiculously careful, that if I convert back into another religion, whether it be Islam or any other religion, that I don't have the mindset of 'them vs. us.' I hear what you're saying, Servant...but apostasy is a human right, not a crime, not a flaw...but a right. People can live any way they wish, and where I'd like to see Islam go...is to let people truly live freely, without any need to correct them. It's a free world, no one owns it. No religion owns it. A set of faith beliefs is only beautiful if it's set free...and its followers are free to follow it.

 

[gsa]

Yes, religion can have the ability to divide, and separate...but only if the 'adherent' lets it. I think the danger of any religion, or religion in general is not in so much if the followers define their own lives using it, but if they attempt to define others' lives using it. That is probably what causes the most problems with believers and non-believers. Much of what religions teach, tends to give a person a sense of belonging, and then they look at those outside of that faith as 'not' belonging. It is subtle in how it can work that way. And Islam isn't that much different in that regard, from what I've read. Having said that, it can offer fulfillment to those who seek it, if you don't look to use it against others. Islam isn't the problem when it comes to groups like ISIS, and the like...it is how they view Islam, how they 'use' Islam...it is more of a tool to control others, and rule over others, than it is anything else.

People who aren't that familiar with Islam, know no Muslims in their social circles, etc...may view Islam strictly from the news snippets, and think that it is a violent cult masquerading as a religion. But, that is not Islam. The people doing those things say they follow Islam, but the Catholic priests who molested kids called themselves Catholics, too. Once upon a time, Christians in the U.S., were once slave owners, etc...So...people use religion all over the world to hide behind their own depravity. That 'problem' isn't exclusive in Islam. That's a human problem.

I do not believe in idealized versions of these religions. They exist only to the extent that they are practiced. And in any religion that has over a billion adherents, you are going to find plenty of diversity. It is the same with Christianity.

That being said, and please do not take this the wrong way, but you appear to be making a mistake in assuming that the critique of Islam is explained by a myopic focus on fringe elements or lack of personal experience. It can be, certainly, but there is a difference between uninformed criticism and informed criticism. For all of the diversity within these traditions, there are certain undeniable patterns. How many nations execute people for apostasy and homosexuality? And out of those nations, how many have Muslim majorities? You can say that is not Islam, but I think that those Muslims would disagree, very strongly, and they would have ample ammunition to back up that claim.

I do not think that Islam is a violent cult masquerading as a religion. I know that Islam is a religion, one with a violent text and a violent history that is not very different from Christianity, which is also a religion with a violent text and a violent history. That is not to say that Islam can be reduced to violence, or that Christianity can be reduced　to violence. But how do people use Islam to hide behind their depravity? Precedent.

Is some criticism of Islam unfair? Absolutely. Is all criticism of Islam unfair? Not even close.

 

[gsa]

How many Muslim countries execute people for apostasy, and homosexuality, believe it or not very few, do your research, islamophobe.....

You see, this is the problem. Reactions like this. Did I begin by asking how many Islamic nations executed people for homosexuality and apostasy? No; I began by asking how many nations, period, executed people for apostasy and homosexuality, and then asked of that number, how many were Muslim majority. After I emphasized the diversity that any tradition with over a billion adherents brings to it, along with explicit comparisons to Christianity.

I do not hate Muslims. I don’t even hate Islam, although I strongly disagree with its claims. Islam is an abstraction, as I said, that has no reality apart from its practice.

You assume so much about me. Would it surprise you that I am a strong supporter of Palestinian rights? A strong opponent of US intervention in the Middle East? That I work with Muslims? Hell, that my sister is dating a Muslim man, and we all just got back from dinner?

I do not hate Muslims, but I don’t much care for fools.

 

[LuisDantas]

I'm beginning to wonder is Islamophoby even exists except as a convenient excuse to discourage criticism of Islam that would otherwise be understandably perceived as fair and difficult to challenge.

 

[Sees]

Deidre, have you read through anything like this > The Birth of Islam in Arabia ?

As much as the violent, extremist groups of today do go way overboard and make Islam look bad…certain things have precedent going back to the beginnings of Islam.

Truth is a group could copy certain undertakings of Muhammad step by step next week or next month and people would still say that they do not know the true Islam.

We can not say that the epitome of Islamic knowledge, the quintessential Muslim...did not know true Islam.

I have a couple biographies of Muhammad that are 700+ pages, written by Muslim scholars for Muslims...some of the story is beautiful, some is inspirational, and some is downright frightening. It's not media propaganda to say Islam had more excessive violence and intolerance towards others than basically all other well known religions - starting from the time enough numbers were amassed to begin raids and initiate battles.

In dealings with theology, Islam through Muhammad and the greater Muslim minds has always been wonderful, in dealings with people and whole societies it's always been "controversial" at best.

There is a large gap between the base of pure monotheism, life of honoring and obedience to God, soul-stirring prayers...and the entire package as sealed and delivered.

 

[LuisDantas]

Truth is a group could copy certain undertakings of Muhammad step by step next week or next month and people would still say that they do not know the true Islam.

And they might well be technically right, apparently. True Islam seems to be literally perfect and beyond the reach of criticism. Therefore, if criticism appears, and particularly if it is justified, that must mean that it is not true islam that we met.

That is a most unfortunate circunstance, for that means that Islamic practice is as resilient as it is prone to reject justified criticism.

I can't help but see that as an actual, serious and dangerous defect of Islamic teachings. They literally seem to need denial of reality in order to survive. And a religion needs to be capable of dealing with reality as it is in order to be worth of any attention, IMO.

 

[Revoltingest]

To people who suffer from persecution of any type because of your faith, giving you a hug here.

Dang! I now wish I had feelings of persecution! (Not really.) But good fer you.....we could all stand to be civil to each other. I like many of the fundies (& their undies), Muslims, Mormons, mommies, commies, feminists, conservatives, liberals, negroes, skank hoes, & even the strange little Italian gay guy we have here. Let not our affiliations stand between us.

 

[gsa]

. It's not media propaganda to say Islam had more excessive violence and intolerance towards others than basically all other well known religions - starting from the time enough numbers were amassed to begin raids and initiate battles.

In dealings with theology, Islam through Muhammad and the greater Muslim minds has always been wonderful, in dealings with people and whole societies it's always been "controversial" at best.

I will actually offer a limited defense of Islam here, at least in comparison to Christianity. Christianity was a barbaric religion that was institutionally intolerant of any competitor, particularly once it gained the power to enforce that intolerance. A certain level of tolerance for some minority religions is built into Islam, while Christianity did not have any limits on dealing with heresy, paganism/polytheism or Abrahamic co-religionists (again at an institutional as opposed to purely personal level). The recent enmity between Jews and Muslims, for example, is nothing compared to the historical distrust that the Jewish community had for Christianity, which, following the "plain language" of the Gospels, deemed Jews to be the children of Satan and collectively guilty of deicide.

History reshapes how we view this of course, but there are a number of positions that were taken by Islam that were comparatively tolerant, but this tolerant history does not translate into an acceptable level of tolerance today.

 

[Deidre]

Deidre, have you read through anything like this > The Birth of Islam in Arabia ?

As much as the violent, extremist groups of today do go way overboard and make Islam look bad…certain things have precedent going back to the beginnings of Islam.

Truth is a group could copy certain undertakings of Muhammad step by step next week or next month and people would still say that they do not know the true Islam.

We can not say that the epitome of Islamic knowledge, the quintessential Muslim...did not know true Islam.

I have a couple biographies of Muhammad that are 700+ pages, written by Muslim scholars for Muslims...some of the story is beautiful, some is inspirational, and some is downright frightening. It's not media propaganda to say Islam had more excessive violence and intolerance towards others than basically all other well known religions - starting from the time enough numbers were amassed to begin raids and initiate battles.

In dealings with theology, Islam through Muhammad and the greater Muslim minds has always been wonderful, in dealings with people and whole societies it's always been "controversial" at best.

There is a large gap between the base of pure monotheism, life of honoring and obedience to God, soul-stirring prayers...and the entire package as sealed and delivered.

I will read that, thank you. I have been reading objective sources discussing the history of Islam, and Muhammad's life, etc. Coming from a Christian background where the 'hero' of the story is a pacifist who never raised his hand to anyone (Jesus)...Muhammad's life wasn't easy for me at first, to get my head around. But, not all prophets were pacifists, and I don't look at everything Muhammad did as justified, because I do come from a different background, and culture. I'd be lying if I said living in the west hasn't shaped my world view. If I lived however in a war torn country, where I wasn't allowed to be educated, and live freely...and I was forced to follow laws that strip women of their freedoms (more so than men)...my views would be different, no doubt. I try to place myself into the lives as best I can, of those who live in the middle east, who have no voice, who are under constant tyranny. For many Muslims, they are not supportive of violence--and there are many living in the middle east who don't support or advocate it.

I believe that the core message of Islam from Muhammad to his people OF THAT TIME...was one of hope. I still believe that is the ultimate, unadulterated message of Islam to this day. But, Muhammad believed that he had to literally defend his religion, and his own life. Many people tried to kill him. He was rising in popularity, and not unlike Jesus, people wished him dead. The problem that we see with Muhammad's 'warrior ways,' is that he was considered a prophet. If he was a mere historical figure we were reading about, who fought to defend Islam, and the surrounding areas of his community...we wouldn't think much of his actions. But he is touted as a prophet...the final Prophet, and that is where everyone's problems come in. He is seen more like a villain, not as a hero. He is seen as a promoter of violence, not a defender of Islam. I have talked to Muslims who have explained to me that they believe Muhammad's actions were because of the war time he lived in, and had no one persecuted him and/or tried to harm him, he wouldn't have become a wager of war. He had a large number of wives, and while it doesn't sit well with me coming from a society that has laws against polygamy, it has been written that he treated his wives well. I have to reallyyyyy stretch my mind around that one, lol But, polygamy was part of the culture, not a tenet of Islam. Muhammad is the polar opposite of who I once followed, Jesus...so my desire to understand him is relevant.

Anyway, I have much to learn...but, what is interesting about these conversations, even with my Christian and atheist friends, is that their image of a religious figure comes in the form of a pacifist. Not saying that is right/wrong, it is just an observation I've made in these discussions. We as humans, have a hard time seeing Muhammad as a messenger of God, because of his controversial, violent background. No one has all the answers but it's interesting to say the least! lol

 

[Deidre]

Dang! I now wish I had feelings of persecution! (Not really.) But good fer you.....we could all stand to be civil to each other. I like many of the fundies (& their undies), Muslims, Mormons, mommies, commies, feminists, conservatives, liberals, negroes, skank hoes, & even the strange little Italian gay guy we have here. Let not our affiliations stand between us.

Aw, this is so nice.

 

[gsa]

& even the strange little Italian gay guy we have here. Let not our affiliations stand between us.

You forgot, Catholic. He's also Catholic.

I will read that, thank you. I have been reading objective sources discussing the history of Islam, and Muhammad's life, etc. Coming from a Christian background where the 'hero' of the story is a pacifist who never raised his hand to anyone (Jesus)...Muhammad's life wasn't easy for me at first, to get my head around. But, not all prophets were pacifists, and I don't look at everything Muhammad did as justified, because I do come from a different background, and culture. I'd be lying if I said living in the west hasn't shaped my world view. If I lived however in a war torn country, where I wasn't allowed to be educated, and live freely...and I was forced to follow laws that strip women of their freedoms (more so than men)...my views would be different, no doubt. I try to place myself into the lives as best I can, of those who live in the middle east, who have no voice, who are under constant tyranny. For many Muslims, they are not supportive of violence--and there are many living in the middle east who don't support or advocate it.

I believe that the core message of Islam from Muhammad to his people OF THAT TIME...was one of hope. I still believe that is the ultimate, unadulterated message of Islam to this day. But, Muhammad believed that he had to literally defend his religion, and his own life. Many people tried to kill him. He was rising in popularity, and not unlike Jesus, people wished him dead. The problem that we see with Muhammad's 'warrior ways,' is that he was considered a prophet. If he was a mere historical figure we were reading about, who fought to defend Islam, and the surrounding areas of his community...we wouldn't think much of his actions. But he is touted as a prophet...the final Prophet, and that is where everyone's problems come in. He is seen more like a villain, not as a hero. He is seen as a promoter of violence, not a defender of Islam. I have talked to Muslims who have explained to me that they believe Muhammad's actions were because of the war time he lived in, and had no one persecuted him and/or tried to harm him, he wouldn't have become a wager of war. He had a large number of wives, and while it doesn't sit well with me coming from a society that has laws against polygamy, it has been written that he treated his wives well. I have to reallyyyyy stretch my mind around that one, lol But, polygamy was part of the culture, not a tenet of Islam. Muhammad is the polar opposite of who I once followed, Jesus...so my desire to understand him is relevant.

Anyway, I have much to learn...but, what is interesting about these conversations, even with my Christian and atheist friends, is that their image of a religious figure comes in the form of a pacifist. Not saying that is right/wrong, it is just an observation I've made in these discussions. We as humans, have a hard time seeing Muhammad as a messenger of God, because of his controversial, violent background. No one has all the answers but it's interesting to say the least! lol

I am only interested in addressing the pacifist component. I think that Christians are often encouraged to see Jesus as a pacifist, but that is not the only possible interpretation of what he said. There are also a number of historical critics that doubt his pacifist and tolerant credentials. Some historians believe his attack on the temple was a violent insurrection that was put down as such, and there is plenty of evidence from the gospels (i.e., his dealings with the Canaanite "dog" woman) that he was not particularly fond of gentiles.

As with Islam, or views of Christianity are shaped by the world in which we live today, not necessarily the world that produced these scriptures.

 

[Sees]

I will actually offer a limited defense of Islam here, at least in comparison to Christianity. Christianity was a barbaric religion that was institutionally intolerant of any competitor, particularly once it gained the power to enforce that intolerance. A certain level of tolerance for some minority religions is built into Islam, while Christianity did not have any limits on dealing with heresy, paganism/polytheism or Abrahamic co-religionists (again at an institutional as opposed to purely personal level). The recent enmity between Jews and Muslims, for example, is nothing compared to the historical distrust that the Jewish community had for Christianity, which, following the "plain language" of the Gospels, deemed Jews to be the children of Satan and collectively guilty of deicide.

History reshapes how we view this of course, but there are a number of positions that were taken by Islam that were comparatively tolerant, but this tolerant history does not translate into an acceptable level of tolerance today.

I agree...probably the thing that sticks most in my mind is the immediacy of violence with Islam and that it so quickly went on a road tour of sorts which was more about violent subjugation than preaching.

It wasn't many generations removed from the founder and as easily seen as a perversion of it's actual nature.

Imagine a gospel story where Jesus commands mass beheadings, not for those who attacked him and his followers, but people who simply committed the crime of not helping him fight another group - carried out while the families watched. I'm a combat vet and even to me that is some raw, unsettling stuff! There hasn't been much of a break inbetween episodes of this for 1,400 years.

Church inspired violence has pretty much been extinguished in comparison.

 

[Revoltingest]

You forgot, Catholic. He's also Catholic.

Oh.
Really?
Well.....that changes everything!

 

[gsa]

I agree...probably the thing that sticks most in my mind is the immediacy of violence with Islam and that it so quickly went on a road tour of sorts which was more about violent subjugation than preaching.

It wasn't many generations removed from the founder and as easily seen as a perversion of it's actual nature.

Imagine a gospel story where Jesus commands mass beheadings, not for those who attacked him and his followers, but people who simply committed the crime of not helping him fight another group - carried out while the families watched. I'm a combat vet and even to me that is some raw, unsettling stuff! There hasn't been much of a break inbetween episodes of this for 1,400 years.

Church inspired violence has pretty much been extinguished in comparison.

But as I said upthread, our views of Jesus on these questions may be distorted. He could have been much more comfortable with violence and intolerance than we assume, and given his time, that is frankly more plausible than the alternative.

I have no interest in defending the founder of Islam. I just think that our historical perspective shouldn't be skewed by what we have been immersed in culturally.