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Unfair opinions about Islam :(

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
haha I laughed while reading this, because yes...I was told nasty comments when I left Christianity, and told people I felt that I best identified as an atheist.

I'm forever the odd girl out. :p

Very good point, some comments about religion are true. Is a religion only as 'good' as those carrying it out? :/

It seems to me that sometimes certain religions' teachings are better than what the followers of those religions demonstrate, and sometimes followers of certain religions act much more humanely than what the teachings of their religions dictate. I have found the latter to be the case a lot more often when it comes to the Abrahamic religions.
 

Deidre

Well-Known Member
This is so off topic, but for some reason I always confuse you and Sees. :p
I don't know why.

It seems to me that sometimes certain religions' teachings are better than what the followers of those religions demonstrate, and sometimes followers of certain religions act much more humanely than what the teachings of their religions dictate. I have found the latter to be the case a lot more often when it comes to the Abrahamic religions.
 

Flankerl

Well-Known Member
Prophet Muhammad pbuh didnt speak from his own desires when he said the nations will attack muslims for their religion just like hungry people attacks food.
It is characteristic of the Straight Path that christians, jews, atheists , apostates, and polytheists are united against Islam.

Meanwhile in reality the Islamic Armies conquered and converted the Levant, Northern Africa, parts of Asia Minor, Persia, Iberia...... out of their own free will without the owners of these areas ever attacking them before in quite a short amount of time.



What was the response of his fellow Jews to what he taught?

Apparently so horrible that his followers had to persecute us for the next 1900 years.



I am curious about why a 'God' would create three religions, with three different 'holy' books, each of which tells its followers to kill the followers of the other religions.

Actually Christians and Muslims aren't mentioned in the Tanakh at all.
 

Lyndon

"Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
Premium Member
I agree...probably the thing that sticks most in my mind is the immediacy of violence with Islam and that it so quickly went on a road tour of sorts which was more about violent subjugation than preaching.

It wasn't many generations removed from the founder and as easily seen as a perversion of it's actual nature.

Imagine a gospel story where Jesus commands mass beheadings, not for those who attacked him and his followers, but people who simply committed the crime of not helping him fight another group - carried out while the families watched. I'm a combat vet and even to me that is some raw, unsettling stuff! There hasn't been much of a break inbetween episodes of this for 1,400 years.

Church inspired violence has pretty much been extinguished in comparison.

You seem ignorant of the violent history of the Old testament Israelites, I don't see it as any different, doesn't make it right, though.
 

Sees

Dragonslayer
You seem ignorant of the violent history of the Old testament Israelites, I don't see it as any different, doesn't make it right, though.


2,400-3,600 years ago...plenty of unhistorical myth and legend mixed in...isolated in a very small region and dealing with much smaller numbers. Doesn't seem very comparable.
 

Flankerl

Well-Known Member
+ BREAKING NEWS +
This just in, Antiquity was brutal, they also had no cable

rsz_slow_4191_2781.gif
 

gsa

Well-Known Member
So you're an apologist for Jewish and Christian violence but Islamic violence is deplorable?? All violence is deplorable, no excuses......

Your own tendency to ignore the substantive responses on critiques of Islamic fundamentalism (as like the one I posted upthread after you accused me of anti-Muslim bias) strongly suggests to me that you are an apologist for it. To suggest that a neopagan is an apologist for Jewish and Christian violence is dubious enough, but to suggest that after you yourself label virtually any criticism of Islam "Islamophobia" is absurd.
 

Deidre

Well-Known Member
Violence isn't a byproduct of religion, it's a sad component of human nature. Religion gave/gives violent groups in the world a scapegoat, is all. Even if you believe your 'holy book' is dictating for you to commit heinous acts of violence, that doesn't mean you should. At some point, people should view the stories of centuries past as taken in the time period they were told, and use their own set of morals and values to determine their courses of action. The message of Islam is one of hope and peace, but it is a religion filled with strife and struggle, and the message gets lost in that, and all people take away from it is...the strife and struggle.
 

Deidre

Well-Known Member
I do not think that Islam is a violent cult masquerading as a religion. I know that Islam is a religion, one with a violent text and a violent history that is not very different from Christianity, which is also a religion with a violent text and a violent history. That is not to say that Islam can be reduced to violence, or that Christianity can be reduced to violence. But how do people use Islam to hide behind their depravity? Precedent.

Is some criticism of Islam unfair? Absolutely. Is all criticism of Islam unfair? Not even close.

SO well said, agree.

We are taught by religions that it can be wrong to question them, but as humans, we must question things to better understand them, and religions, even if we think they are actual words from a god...they are still passed down by mankind, and over time, things can and do get lost in translation.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
So you're an apologist for Jewish and Christian violence but Islamic violence is deplorable?? All violence is deplorable, no excuses......

It seems clear to me that the subject matter is slanted towards judging the present and likely future as opposed to the past.

People are funny that way.
 

Lyndon

"Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
Premium Member
Are you living in a cave?? The Persian Gulf war, the Gaza massacre of Palestinians, this violence is definitely not one sided, Islam is not any more violent than the Western powers are.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Violence isn't a byproduct of religion, it's a sad component of human nature.

Violence is often a byproduct of religious beliefs, though. It is often enabled and potentialized by unwise or mishandled religious beliefs, and that is as unpleasant as important to realize.

Religion is defined and understood very differently indeed, but most understandings involve it having a major role in deciding where one's values lie and which goals are seem as most important. An unavoidable result is that if it is not well-chosen and well-understood one is more likely than not to commit serious mistakes. Which in turn may be one reason why so often people conclude that it is safer to, noticeably enough, submit themselves to some authority's judgement on those matters.

Unfortunately, that is also a very popular attitude. I figure it is appealing and looks safe and confortable to many people. And right there I must be quite the unpleasant gent, because I see that as cowardly and irresponsible. To me that is cheating and attempting to avoid responsibilities that do need to be accepted by each individual person.

Religion gave/gives violent groups in the world a scapegoat, is all.

I wish. It also gives many of those people and groups certainty and justification that they never earned, never deserved, and often never will.

Even if you believe your 'holy book' is dictating for you to commit heinous acts of violence, that doesn't mean you should. At some point, people should view the stories of centuries past as taken in the time period they were told, and use their own set of morals and values to determine their courses of action.

Quite so. Unfortunately, an alarming number of people does the exact opposite, to the point of proposing that religion's legitimate role is the exact opposite: to teach us The One True Way of the Ancients Which We All Should Be Ashamed of Not Wanting to Emulate Right Here and Now Even and Perhaps Mainly If It Makes No Discernible Sense and Sounds Absurd To Any Reasonable Person.

And quite often, they insist that we must do that Because God Told Us To. And either disregard entirely or spend a lot of effort attempting to disqualify any competing understandings, often for no discernible practical result. Such a bad waste of good human efforts.

I guess those people made me an Anti-Thiest. So... Thank You All, wherever you are, and I hope from my heart that you learn better before we all suffer even more for it.


The message of Islam is one of hope and peace, but it is a religion filled with strife and struggle, and the message gets lost in that, and all people take away from it is...the strife and struggle.

The message of any religion is that which its adherents attribute to it. It is hopeless to expect it to be homogeneous even in the same family of nominal adherents to the same faith, let alone along a faith that is nominally the belief of over a billion people.

To a large extent, it is because there is so much relutance in accepting that heterogeneity of interpretation and meaning, because it is perceived as so crucial that agreement be attained, that all that strife and struggle arise. So I do not know that I see a lot of wrongness in perceiving them as significant.
 

Servant_of_the_One1

Well-Known Member
Jesus said a similar thing...'the world will hate you, because it hated me first.'

I want to be careful...ridiculously careful, that if I convert back into another religion, whether it be Islam or any other religion, that I don't have the mindset of 'them vs. us.' I hear what you're saying, Servant...but apostasy is a human right, not a crime, not a flaw...but a right. People can live any way they wish, and where I'd like to see Islam go...is to let people truly live freely, without any need to correct them. It's a free world, no one owns it. No religion owns it. A set of faith beliefs is only beautiful if it's set free...and its followers are free to follow it.


Fully agreed. There is no compulsion in religion.
 

Servant_of_the_One1

Well-Known Member
2,400-3,600 years ago...plenty of unhistorical myth and legend mixed in...isolated in a very small region and dealing with much smaller numbers. Doesn't seem very comparable.
Are u for real?

Muslims could say Israel is following the commands of Torah which is to kill gentiles(palestine) including babies.
Kill Nonbelievers

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)



If you dont obey priest, that apostate must be slaughterd:

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

Sorcerers will be hunted down:

You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)

The ruling on Gays where Bible is judged as a law:
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

Kill Fortunetellers

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

Death for Hitting Dad

Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)


Death for Adultery

If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)


Jews tried to kill Prophet Jesus pbuh and Prophet Muhammad pbuh for one reason. They believed these two were false prophets. What does OT say about false prophets?

Kill False Prophets

If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)


Polytheists and disbelievers must be put to sword:
Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

Atleast we know now why Israel fully destroys Gaza. They dont recognize the babies there as humans, but more as disbelievers that must be killed.


The list continues. Jesus pbuh didnt forbid Mosaic law so this still applies to every christian that wants to rule by God's law according to Bible. Or are there two gods? The God of OT commands that, while the "god"(jesus pbuh claimed to be god by christians) of NT says Mosaic law is still to be followed, but christians dont agree with the god of OT :)
 
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Lyndon

"Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
Premium Member
I hope you are not addressing me, Lyndon. Because that might mean you expect an answer, and I have learned better.

I was addressing you, you are the one saying Muslims are more violent, when if we look at Israel for example they have a policy of being 10-20 times more violent than their neighbors, in that it seems for every 10 israelis that are killed, 100-200 of their neighbors must die in retaliation, so obviously Israelis are more violent than their Muslim neighbors, now if their neighbors were as powerful it might be a different story, but its not, Jews, Christians, Muslims, Atheist Americans, etc etc very violent people.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Fully agreed. There is no compulsion in religion.

Tell me more about it, Servant. What does that important verse mean, by your reading? It is often mentioned, but IMO very rarely holds any clear meaning, even in the exact contexts where it is raised.




We may need a topic specifically to discuss that verse. I found three, but they are all rather old.


The best one is

Compulsion or not? What say you, Muslims? | ReligiousForums.com

the other two are

Let There Be No Compulsion in Religion | ReligiousForums.com

and

There is no compulsion in islam, everyone enjoys freedom of worship and belief | ReligiousForums.com


Maybe you would want to join one of those or create a fourth?
 

arthra

Baha'i
In my view the issue between Christianity and Islam began centuries ago...with the collapse of the Byzantine Empire through it's own high taxation of it's citizens and corrupt administration... Both the Byzantines and the Sassanids were wreaked by intense conflicts which weakened both empires.. It should be noted here that both Christian nations such as Ethiopia and the Byzantines as well as the Sassanids had spheres of influence in Arabia long before the emergence of Islam..

The current issues in the middle east I think have been caused by the disintegration of civil authority and consequent internal strife... this is not necessarily due to Islam... there are examples of what we could call failed states in other parts of the world. I do believe irresponsible groups have exploited religion to their advantage... as in "hyjacking" religion for their own purposes.

as Baha'is we have suffered a good deal from Muslim theocracies but you will never find a Baha'i attacking Islam or Prophet Muhammad...there are good values and teachings in the Quran ... Yes some have been twisted and used to justify oppressive actions..but I think to be fair and in the long run Muslims themselves will work through these issues...
 
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