Unity in Submission to God’s Counsels.

[Pete in Panama]

I see we have to drop eastern amd western comparisons. We are one human race drawing from the same human spirit, which is sustained by the One Holy Spirit. On the other hand we have to embrace the diversity f thought that spans cultures.

Is not the Baha'i community supposed to be an example of what unity can achieve, at this time and embryo of what it can become?

For centuries the Baha'i faith has been an island of unity in an ocean of conflict. At the same time we must remember that westerners are different from easterners. Abdul'Baha kept the western pilgrims separate from the eastern pilgrims because they didn't mix well. Nobody's good nor bad, it's simply how we manage people of different cultures.

I see a very different world ahead, this civilisation has run its course, a fair warning given. I see a decentralised system of communities will be built that will he assisted by technology that does not require us to live like lumpy porridge, millions in large cities and very few in the country.

There is a lot of change to come. I see Australia will and needs to face great change.

I see so much change required in my own self.

Regards Tony

Predictions are always risky, especially the ones about the future. Personally, I see mankind raising forth an ever advancing civilization.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

For centuries the Baha'i faith has been an island of unity in an ocean of conflict. At the same time we must remember that westerners are different from easterners. Abdul'Baha kept the western pilgrims separate from the eastern pilgrims because they didn't mix well. Nobody's good nor bad, it's simply how we manage people of different cultures.

Predictions are always risky, especially the ones about the future. Personally, I see mankind raising forth an ever advancing civilization.

I have also lived amongst the indigenous peoples of Australia and the Solomon Islands. They also have a different cultures based on traditional values and stories.

Yes predictions are very tricky, but I see the Writings warn us clearly that civilisations do vanish into the past, and that we are not exempt.

I see lessons of this age will remain, but civilisation as we know it will change. I also contemplate that the Temple will be the center of communities. Thus I envisage communities will become self supporting, a town planning background has given me interest in this respect.

Regards Tony

 

[Pete in Panama]

... the Writings warn us clearly that civilisations do vanish into the past, and that we are not exempt.

I see lessons of this age will remain, but civilisation as we know it will change...

This discussion needs actual quotes. If you're game I can present statements from Baha'u'llah, Abdul'Baha, and Shoghi Effendi stating that mankind was created to carry forward an ever advancing civilization. Then we can understand together how they relate to other quotes you may be referring to.

 

[Ajax]

That's it, to me, plain and simple it is a No.

I see the peace and security of humanity is unattainable, unless and until Unity is firmly established and that unity is not possible while humanity as a majority do not follow the Counsels given by God.

All faiths given of God, do have Counsels given of God, so what are they?

I think the one to start with is Love as in John 15:12 "This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you."

"Deal ye one with another with the utmost love and harmony, with friendliness and fellowship . . . This goal excelleth every other goal, and this aspiration is the monarch of all aspirations." Bahá’u’lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 288

With all due respect as a human, I find your comments naive and blinded...

I will give you one answer only...

1 Samuel 15:3 "Now go and strike Amalek and completely destroy everything that he has, and do not spare him; but put to death both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’”

 

[Secret Chief]

With all due respect as a human, I find your comments naive and blinded...

I will give you one answer only...

1 Samuel 15:3 "Now go and strike Amalek and completely destroy everything that he has, and do not spare him; but put to death both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’”

Thanks for confirming I don't need to read the bible.

- 1 Samuel 15 (GNB)

So apparently the lord commanded all the sheep and cows be killed but then he gets annoyed because he was disobeyed big style: not all of them were killed straight off, some were saved for killing later on.

I got a message for the lord: **** you.

 

[Link]

I am an anarchist. I think "just ruler" is an oxymoron.

Even if anarchy were chaos, which I don't believe it is, that chaos would still be preferable to the so-called "order" (i.e., subjugation) found under rulers. I think most people think rulers are necessary because rulers have fooled us into believing that we "have" to give them power over us. I don't think we need to do any such thing.

But that's a different debate. I doubt we'll get anywhere on that subject here. The majority of people in the world have been brainwashed into believing the myth of just rulership, and not just the religious. It's an uphill battle to argue against and I'm not really interested in hashing it out. I just thought

I am sort of an anarchist. I can expand, but we have to define power which is half the battle for anarchists.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Members of faiths will appreciate this unity. You can travel to any country and visit homes of people that will embrace you as part of the family.

I have experience that unity across nations myself.

Regards Tony

You’ve even been to my home!

 

[Ajax]

Hamas are the archetype of the Amalekites and Israel now like then is fighting for its survival................

Although I believe Israel has the right to attack Hamas, as a human I find your message (if you agree with theisraelbible.com text) insulting and disgusting. You justify genocides (killing even babies and all the animals) ordered by an imaginary murderous God.
You must change your profile's name.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

This discussion needs actual quotes. If you're game I can present statements from Baha'u'llah, Abdul'Baha, and Shoghi Effendi stating that mankind was created to carry forward an ever advancing civilization. Then we can understand together how they relate to other quotes you may be referring to.

I am always game Pete. I would offer since day I of the First Messenger, until the day of the Last Messenger, we have been and will be part of an ever advancing civilization.

That advancement goes through cycles and empires come and go, one can view the ruins of past empires. In this age this empire building has been mostly on a global scale and there is no doubt some of these empires will fall. The Colosseums of this day are the sporting arena's, the casino's, the horse racing tracks where obscenity with wealth is distributed.

So while civilization as a whole is ever advancing, the rise and fall of empires in this process is inevitable.

The destruction of cities is also inevitable, we can see the results on many current conflict fronts, they have already been part of the process where humanity as a whole is progressing towards a lasting unity, but empires are falling and will still fall. Tyrants will pass away to just rulers etc etc.

So let's start with this quote.

"When a cycle comes to a close, a new one is inaugurated, and the previous cycle, on account of the momentous events which transpire, vanishes so entirely from memory as to leave behind no record or trace. Thus, as you are aware, we have no record of twenty thousand years ago, even though … life on this earth is very ancient—not one or two hundred thousand, or even one or two million years old: It is ancient indeed, and the records and traces of ancient times have been entirely obliterated.

Each of the Manifestations of God has likewise a cycle wherein His religion and His law are in full force and effect. When His cycle is ended through the advent of a new Manifestation, a new cycle begins. Thus, cycles are inaugurated, concluded, and renewed, until a universal cycle is completed in the world of existence and momentous events transpire which efface every record and trace of the past …" – Abdu’l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, newly revised edition, pp. 182-183.

There is no reason to conclude this will not transpire with the event that will cause the limbs of mankind to quake. However, whatever happens we know humanity is advancing towards a lasting peace, where something like Shoghi Effendi offered will unfold.

"....Some form of world super-state must needs be evolved, in whose favor all the nations of the world will have willingly ceded every claim to make war, certain rights to impose taxation and all rights to maintain armaments, except for purposes of maintaining internal order within their respective dominions. Such a state will have to include within its orbit an international executive adequate to enforce supreme and unchallengeable authority on every recalcitrant member of the commonwealth; a world parliament whose members shall be elected by the people in their respective countries and whose election shall be confirmed by their respective governments; and a supreme tribunal whose judgment will have a binding effect even in such cases where the parties concerned did not voluntarily agree to submit their case to its consideration". – The World Order of Baha’u’llah, p. 40.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

With all due respect as a human, I find your comments naive and blinded...

I will give you one answer only...

1 Samuel 15:3 "Now go and strike Amalek and completely destroy everything that he has, and do not spare him; but put to death both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’”

The comments may have a lot more background information not yet supplied.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

You’ve even been to my home!

It was a wonderful day and you are like a brother.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

I will give you one answer only...

1 Samuel 15:3 "Now go and strike Amalek and completely destroy everything that he has, and do not spare him; but put to death both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’”

FYI, as a Baha'i, I do not consider Samuel to be divine speech or part of any revelation from God, and as historical information, I don't believe it is necessarily accurate.


Mírza Abú'l-Fadl was praised and recommended by 'Abdu'l-Bahá and has been justifiably called the most learned and erudite Bahá'í scholar[16]

Regarding the Old Testament, Fadl said that it contained two types of teaching: a) revelation from God, such as the 10 commandments of Moses, the Psalms of David and the books of the Prophets, and b) historical information, such as the books Joshua, Samuel, Kings and Chronicles "...which contain no statement, sign or hint of being divine speech and therefore should not be considered as revelation."[17]

Concerning the Book of Christ, he wrote that "The Holy Gospels alone contain teachings which can be regarded as the true Words of God; and these teachings do not exceed the contents of a few pages."[18]

Mírza Abú'l-Fadl's contributions are original and lucid, and appear to me to be in harmony with the understanding of the Bible which is argued for in the present paper.

16. Cole, J.R., in "editor's note", Mírza Abú'l-Fadl, Letters & Essays 1886-1913, Kalimat Press, Los Angeles, 1985, p.xiv.
17. Mírza Abú'l-Fadl in Miracles and Metaphors, Kalimat Press, Los Angeles, 1981, pp.11,12.
18. Mírza Abú'l-Fadl in The Bahá'í Proofs, Bahá'í Publishing Trust, Wilmette, Illinios, 1983, p.220.

A Baháí View of the Bible

 

[Ajax]

FYI, as a Baha'i, I do not consider Samuel to be divine speech or part of any revelation from God, and as historical information, I don't believe it is necessarily accurate.

OK, so you don't like Samuel...
What about Numbers, Deuteronomy, Book of Joshua, Exodus? Where God orders genocides of the Canaanites, the Amorites, the Midianites, the complete extermination of the people ruled by Sihon king of Heshbon and the people under Og king of Bashan, the new born males of Egypt (whilst hardening Pharaoh's heart not to agree to His orders)?
Let alone the killings of all people, animal and plants in the world, because he ...changed his mind?
(Gen 6:6 "And the Lord was sorry that he had made man on the earth..") The most ridiculous explanation.

 

[Trailblazer]

OK, so you don't like Samuel...
What about Numbers, Deuteronomy, Book of Joshua, Exodus? Where God orders genocides of the Canaanites, the Amorites, the Midianites, the complete extermination of the people ruled by Sihon king of Heshbon and the people under Og king of Bashan, the new born males of Egypt (whilst hardening Pharaoh's heart not to agree to His orders)?
Let alone the killings of all people, animal and plants in the world, because he ...changed his mind?
(Gen 6:6 "And the Lord was sorry that he had made man on the earth..") The most ridiculous explanation.

I do not believe that God ordered any of those things and I do not believe that God changed His mind.
Gen 6:6 "And the Lord was sorry that he had made man on the earth..") I agree that is a ridiculous explanation.
God is infallible so God does not make mistakes, so God cannot be 'sorry' for anything He did.

Frankly, I do not know what to make of the Old Testament, let alone the New Testament, which is another subject. All I can say is that I am grateful that I do not need to rely upon the Bible for the truth from God!

Baha'i views of the Bible vary widely. My views lie in the middle area. There is the possibility that the Bible contains the Word of God, but only in a particular sense of the phrase 'Word of God' or in particular texts. I believe that the Bible is a collection of the writings of independent and human authors, so it is not necessarily historically accurate.

Introduction

Although Bahá'ís universally share a great respect for the Bible, and acknowledge its status as sacred literature, their individual views about its authoritative status range along the full spectrum of possibilities. At one end there are those who assume the uncritical evangelical or fundamentalist-Christian view that the Bible is wholly and indisputably the word of God. At the other end are Bahá'ís attracted to the liberal, scholarly conclusion that the Bible is no more than a product of complex historical and human forces. Between these extremes is the possibility that the Bible contains the Word of God, but only in a particular sense of the phrase 'Word of God' or in particular texts. I hope to show that a Bahá'í view must lie in this middle area, and can be defined to some degree.

Bahá'í teachers and scholars both have an interest in solving this problem. It should be noted at this point that the problem of Biblical authority addressed here is logically prior to that of Biblical interpretation, and the defining of a Bahá'í view is logically prior to engaging in inter-religious dialogue.

Conclusion

The Bahá'í viewpoint proposed by this essay has been established as follows: The Bible is a reliable source of Divine guidance and salvation, and rightly regarded as a sacred and holy book. However, as a collection of the writings of independent and human authors, it is not necessarily historically accurate. Nor can the words of its writers, although inspired, be strictly defined as 'The Word of God' in the way the original words of Moses and Jesus could have been. Instead there is an area of continuing interest for Bahá'í scholars, possibly involving the creation of new categories for defining authoritative religious literature.

A Baháí View of the Bible

``````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
Below is the Baha'i position on the Bible according to the Guardian of the Baha'i Faith, Shoghi Effendi:

The Bahá'ís believe what is in the Bible to be true in substance. This does not mean that every word recorded in that Book is to be taken literally and treated as the authentic saying of a Prophet.

...The Bahá'ís believe that God's Revelation is under His care and protection and that the essence, or essential elements, of what His Manifestations intended to convey has been recorded and preserved in Their Holy Books. However, as the sayings of the ancient Prophets were written down some time later, we cannot categorically state, as we do in the case of the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, that the words and phrases attributed to Them are Their exact words
(9 August 1984 to an individual believer)

The Bible: Extracts on the Old and New Testaments

 

[loverofhumanity]

Although I believe Israel has the right to attack Hamas, as a human I find your message (if you agree with theisraelbible.com text) insulting and disgusting. You justify genocides (killing even babies and all the animals) ordered by an imaginary murderous God.
You must change your profile's name.

Of course like you I’m not justifying any such thing. Unless it has been explained to us by Baha’u’llah and in the Baha’i Writings then we don’t know many of these things in the Bible. For example we are told that the story of Adam and Eve was not a real event just a story, that the Flood and the resurrection was not physical and had spiritual meanings and the same with the Red Sea crossing.

The Bible is not wholly authentic, and in this respect is not to be compared with the Qur'an, and should be wholly subordinated to the authentic writings of Bahá'u'lláh
. (28 July 1936 to a National Spiritual Assembly)

Know ye that the Torah is that which was revealed in the Tablets to Moses, may peace be upon Him, or that to which He was bidden. But the stories are historical narratives and were written after Moses, may peace be upon Him.
(From a previously untranslated Tablet)

We cannot be sure of the authenticity of any of the phrases in the Old or the New Testament. What we can be sure of is when such references or words are cited or quoted in either the Quran or the Bahá'í writings.
(4 July 1947 to an individual believer)

We have no way of substantiating the stories of the Old Testament other than references to them in our own teachings, so we cannot say exactly what happened at the battle of Jericho.
(25 November 1950 to an individual believer)

we cannot be sure how much or how little of the four Gospels are accurate and include the words of Christ and His undiluted teachings, all we can be sure of, as Bahá'ís, is that what has been quoted by Bahá'u'lláh and the Master must be absolutely authentic. As many times passages in the Gospel of St. John are quoted we may assume that it is his Gospel and much of it accurate.
(23 January 1944 to an individual believer)

So I believe that the truth that is required for humanity to progress has been protected and preserved in religions by God but not that every Word is the word of the Prophet or spoken by God Himself so we have to test that against what God’s latest Manifestation has stated.

 

[CG Didymus]

The Bible is not wholly authentic

We cannot be sure of the authenticity of any of the phrases in the Old or the New Testament.

We have no way of substantiating the stories of the Old Testament

we cannot be sure how much or how little of the four Gospels are accurate and include the words of Christ and His undiluted teachings,

And you read the Bible in your Baha'i Temples? How about this one?

1 Samuel 15:3 "Now go and strike Amalek and completely destroy everything that he has, and do not spare him; but put to death both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’”

- 1 Samuel 15 (GNB)

The comments may have a lot more background information not yet supplied.

From Secret Chief's link...

Samuel said to Saul, “I am the one whom the LORD sent to anoint you king of his people Israel. Now listen to what the LORD Almighty says. 2He is going to punish the people of Amalek because their ancestors opposed the Israelites when they were coming from Egypt. 3Go and attack the Amalekites and completely destroy everything they have. Don't leave a thing; kill all the men, women, children, and babies; the cattle, sheep, camels, and donkeys.”​

Samuel was a prophet of the God that Baha'is believe is the one true God. And that God told Samuel to tell King Saul to do all that killing. Or... that's not a true story. Which way do Baha'is prefer?

 

[loverofhumanity]

And you read the Bible in your Baha'i Temples? How about this one?





From Secret Chief's link...

Samuel said to Saul, “I am the one whom the LORD sent to anoint you king of his people Israel. Now listen to what the LORD Almighty says. 2He is going to punish the people of Amalek because their ancestors opposed the Israelites when they were coming from Egypt. 3Go and attack the Amalekites and completely destroy everything they have. Don't leave a thing; kill all the men, women, children, and babies; the cattle, sheep, camels, and donkeys.”​

Samuel was a prophet of the God that Baha'is believe is the one true God. And that God told Samuel to tell King Saul to do all that killing. Or... that's not a true story. Which way do Baha'is prefer?

Pause then to reflect upon the difference between the virtues and perfections of Christ and the splendours and effulgences of Bahá’u’lláh, on the one hand, and the virtues of the Prophets of the House of Israel, such as Ezekiel or Samuel, on the other. All were the recipients of divine revelation, but between them there is an immeasurable distance.(SAQ) Abdul-Baha

The science of historical textual criticism has concluded that what we know of as the Pentateuch (the first 5 books of the Hebrew Bible) was written down approximately 600 years before Christ. These same scholars have also determined that the book of Samuel was indeed compiled over a period of centuries, and written down much later than the events accounted in its pages.

A letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi concurs with modern scholars that many of the writings of the Bible should not be considered as direct, infallible Revelation:

"The Bible is not wholly authentic, and in this respect is not to be compared with the Qur'an, and should be wholly subordinated to the authentic writings of Bahá'u'lláh."

(From a letter dated July 28, 1936 written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to the National Spiritual Assembly of the United States and Canada)

 

[Trailblazer]

Samuel said to Saul, “I am the one whom the LORD sent to anoint you king of his people Israel. Now listen to what the LORD Almighty says. 2He is going to punish the people of Amalek because their ancestors opposed the Israelites when they were coming from Egypt. 3Go and attack the Amalekites and completely destroy everything they have. Don't leave a thing; kill all the men, women, children, and babies; the cattle, sheep, camels, and donkeys.”

Samuel was a prophet of the God that Baha'is believe is the one true God. And that God told Samuel to tell King Saul to do all that killing. Or... that's not a true story. Which way do Baha'is prefer?

Baha'is do not recognize Samuel as a prophet of God.

Mírza Abú'l-Fadl was praised and recommended by 'Abdu'l-Bahá and has been justifiably called the most learned and erudite Bahá'í scholar[16]​

​

Regarding the Old Testament, Fadl said that it contained two types of teaching: a) revelation from God, such as the 10 commandments of Moses, the Psalms of David and the books of the Prophets, and b) historical information, such as the books Joshua, Samuel, Kings and Chronicles "...which contain no statement, sign or hint of being divine speech and therefore should not be considered as revelation."[17]​

​

Mírza Abú'l-Fadl's contributions are original and lucid, and appear to me to be in harmony with the understanding of the Bible which is argued for in the present paper.​

​

17. Mírza Abú'l-Fadl in Miracles and Metaphors, Kalimat Press, Los Angeles, 1981, pp.11,12.​

​

A Baháí View of the Bible​

 

[sayak83]

That's it, to me, plain and simple it is a No.

I see the peace and security of humanity is unattainable, unless and until Unity is firmly established and that unity is not possible while humanity as a majority do not follow the Counsels given by God.

All faiths given of God, do have Counsels given of God, so what are they?

I think the one to start with is Love as in John 15:12 "This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you."

"Deal ye one with another with the utmost love and harmony, with friendliness and fellowship . . . This goal excelleth every other goal, and this aspiration is the monarch of all aspirations." Bahá’u’lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 288

Please discuss in the light that is Love.

Regards Tony

I am not interested in Unity. I believe strong and robust diversity as the life blood of humanity. If that is gone, human beings will be headed for extinction. The only issue is how to keep diversity thriving while decreasing conflicts and still fostering multi-dimensional cooperation among the diversified stakeholders on common problems.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Baha'is do not recognize Samuel as a prophet of God.

Mírza Abú'l-Fadl was praised and recommended by 'Abdu'l-Bahá and has been justifiably called the most learned and erudite Bahá'í scholar[16]​

​

Regarding the Old Testament, Fadl said that it contained two types of teaching: a) revelation from God, such as the 10 commandments of Moses, the Psalms of David and the books of the Prophets, and b) historical information, such as the books Joshua, Samuel, Kings and Chronicles "...which contain no statement, sign or hint of being divine speech and therefore should not be considered as revelation."[17]​

​

Mírza Abú'l-Fadl's contributions are original and lucid, and appear to me to be in harmony with the understanding of the Bible which is argued for in the present paper.​

​

17. Mírza Abú'l-Fadl in Miracles and Metaphors, Kalimat Press, Los Angeles, 1981, pp.11,12.​

​

A Baháí View of the Bible​

Baha’is do recognise Samuel as a Prophet of God of the House of Israel as a minor Prophet.

Pause then to reflect upon the difference between the virtues and perfections of Christ and the splendours and effulgences of Bahá’u’lláh, on the one hand, and the virtues of the Prophets of the House of Israel, such as Ezekiel or Samuel, on the other. All were the recipients of divine revelation, but between them there is an immeasurable distance ( SAQ Abdul-Baha)

As regards what Mirza Abu'l-Fadl has said concerning the seven religions of the past. Shoghi Effendi wishes to emphasize that what is truly authoritative are the Master's words. In all such cases we should try and find out what He has said and abide by His words, even though they seem conflicting with the findings of modern scholars. If He does not say anything on the subject then the individual is free to accept or refute what scholars such as Mirza Abu'l-Fadl say. Through the discussions of these the truth will ultimately be found. But at no time should their decision be considered as final.

Here‘s the thing though. Yes, Abdul-Baha confirms Samuel is a Prophet and a recipient of divine revelation but very different compared to the Manifestations.

So as Abdul Baha said that the minor Prophets did have divine revelations, then we cannot rely upon Mírza Abú'l-Fadl’s summation that the books Joshua, Samuel, Kings and Chronicles "...which contain no statement, sign or hint of being divine speech and therefore should not be considered as revelation as it conflicts with Abdul-Baha’s statement and the Guardian above has stated to turn to the Master’s Words first.

And since we have no interpretation from either the Master or Mírza Abú'l-Fad on that particular passage I can only turn to this letter of Shoghi Effendi’s which states that…

We cannot be sure of the authenticity of any of the phrases in the Old or the New Testament. What we can be sure of is when such references or words are cited or quoted in either the Quran or the Bahá'í writings.
(4 July 1947 to an individual believer)

So yes, according to Abdul-Baha Samuel is a Prophet of God of the House of Israel and ‘were the recipients of divine revelation’.
but the authenticity of this phrase in the Old Testament, we cannot be sure of.