Universal Reconciliation religion.

[savagewind]

I've known parents of children who were murdered find it in their hearts to forgive the murderer. If they can forgive somebody for the worst possible crime, can't God?

I also have difficulty when universalism is criticized for "allowing everybody" into salvation, and then bringing up the worst possible offenses for why it's reasonable to exclude salvation....but then after finding an agreement that murderers shouldn't be forgiven and loved, then the exclusions begin to grow.

And then suddenly, it isn't just murderers anymore. It's:

thieves
slanderers
drunks
homosexuals
adulterers
fornicators
non-Christians
false Christians
Christians who weren't Christian enough

and on and on and on.....

I agree with you. It is why there NEEDS to be a law "do not judge or you will be judged". Some people are trying to make God's forgiveness generic. Everyone is forgiven makes it cheap, I think. The possibility of forgiveness exists for everyone. Is it not complicated? To believe God steps in between the sinner and the victim is to believe God is not for justice.

Someone's example of forgiving a murderer is fine. But I think if the victim survives to suffer the rest of his life, the picture changes a little, doesn't it?

Forgiveness involves three important people. God, the victim and the sinner. For real forgiveness to occur all must agree. The sinner must forgive himself and ask for it, the victim must come to peace about the crime, and God stands ready for all to complete it.

 

[Katzpur]

It is just so disgusting that UR people claim you can be vicious criminal and you can still get to be in heaven.

But is it disgusting that Jesus asked His Father to forgive those who murdered Him? Or is it just disgusting when we also try to forgive others whose actions have harmed us or someone we love?

 

[savagewind]

But is it disgusting that Jesus asked His Father to forgive those who murdered Him? Or is it just disgusting when we also try to forgive others whose actions have harmed us or someone we love?

I think it is off the wall to compare Jesus' forgiveness of the soldiers who were obeying orders (that resulted in God's perfect will accomplished-John 19:30) and the forgiveness of Hitler. Do you have any idea how far removed from each other they are?

 

[sojourner]

Oh look! Some one to talk to

God is more compelling than evil. Absolutely! Did you ever see the movie The Princess Bride? That place they had to travel through was BAD. But better than going around, I think.

Puh-leeze! This doesn't even make sense, theologically. Prince Humperdinck was evil. The fire swamp was not evil. It simply was what it was.

 

[savagewind]

Puh-leeze! This doesn't even make sense, theologically. Prince Humperdinck was evil. The fire swamp was not evil. It simply was what it was.

Uh. Really? LOL You are right. There exists sins that people do that are like being tried by fire spouts, huge bloodthirsty rats, and even quick sand.

 

[sojourner]

It is just so disgusting that UR people claim you can be vicious criminal and you can still get to be in heaven.

If it does not matter what you do or dont, why do they even claim to be Christians?

they are worst kind of religious organization I know and they are claiming to be Christians.

Hold on there just a minute, Cochise! That's not what we claim. What we claim is that salvation is universally effected for every person. There's a difference that's worth noting. Please stop misrepresenting us.

First of all, Universalism doesn't consider what a person has done, because it simply doesn't matter, theologically. God's grace is greater than our sin. It's biblical. Second, universalism (at least the sort I believe) factors in the aspect of repentance. Salvation is freely effected for every person. Do people have to accept that salvation and live into it? Absolutely they do! But (third), what universalism says is that God keeps searching for us until we are all found (that's biblical, too -- and it's part of "Jesus' teaching.")

In short, it does matter what we "do or don't." Just not the way you're thinking that it ought to matter. Personally, I don't give a flying flip what you believe. I'm not responsible for your theological foibles. I'm only culpable for my own actions and attitudes, and I choose to include people and give them the benefit of the doubt.

What is "reconciliation," anyway? A restoration of "right relationship -- not of individuals to God, but of humanity to God. And, as the bible says, if one of the little ones is lost, it's not God's will. Therefore, God's will is that we all be reconciled. All. When we get to God's kindom (no, it's not misspelled), and are seated at the celebration feast, I believe that we will each be seated between the person we hurt the most and the person who hurt us the most. That's reconciliation!

IMO, what could be worse a religion than being a sour, exclusionist, unhappy old soul, griping at the "riff-raff" that got in?

 

[Katzpur]

I think it is off the wall to compare Jesus' forgiveness of the soldiers who were obeying orders (that resulted in God's perfect will accomplished-John 19:30) and the forgiveness of Hitler. Do you have any idea how far removed from each other they are?

Sounds to me as if you just have a really difficult time with the concept of forgiveness. Personally, I don't see how anybody can read Jesus words (as recorded in Mark 11:25-26) and conclude that it's okay for us to pick and choose who we will forgive and who we won't forgive.

"And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses. But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses."

Granted, it can be extremely difficult to forgive people like Hitler. It can even be difficult to forgive people whose actions have affected us or someone we love personally. I would be the last to say that this is not something I struggle with, but I at least recognize that forgiveness should be our goal. It is not optional for anyone who expects God to forgive him.

Oh, and by the way, to forgive Hitler (or anyone else) does not mean saying that what he did was okay.

 

[sojourner]

Sin is always a crime against someone or something (the earth and whatever is on it). To believe the worst criminal offenders can be forgiven by The Lord if they just ask HIM and get the same reward as the ones they sinned against is believing The Lord can stand in the same place as the one to whom the apology is due (the one that was sinned against) and extend forgiveness for the offended. Please, how does that make sense?

What doesn't make theological sense is that salvation is a reward. If it were, grace would be completely ineffectual.

It makes sense because Jesus teaches us to forgive as we are forgiven.

 

[sojourner]

This also muddles up the whole need for salvation.

Salvation isn't required because your sin offended some human. It is required because your sin offended God. God's forgiveness has nothing to do with the offense you gave to the human. God is forgiving you the offense you gave to him. That is what we need to be saved from: God's wrath. Not human's wrath.

I disagree. God isn't wrathful. What we need to be saved from is the distance we put between God and ourselves. God desires us to return. God is slow to anger, merciful, and of great kindness.

 

[savagewind]

What doesn't make theological sense is that salvation is a reward. If it were, grace would be completely ineffectual.

It makes sense because Jesus teaches us to forgive as we are forgiven.

Salvation is not a reward. Life is. How does one get life if not saved?

 

[sojourner]

I agree with you. It is why there NEEDS to be a law "do not judge or you will be judged". Some people are trying to make God's forgiveness generic. Everyone is forgiven makes it cheap, I think. The possibility of forgiveness exists for everyone. Is it not complicated? To believe God steps in between the sinner and the victim is to believe God is not for justice.

Someone's example of forgiving a murderer is fine. But I think if the victim survives to suffer the rest of his life, the picture changes a little, doesn't it?

Forgiveness involves three important people. God, the victim and the sinner. For real forgiveness to occur all must agree. The sinner must forgive himself and ask for it, the victim must come to peace about the crime, and God stands ready for all to complete it.

Grace isn't a commodity, so it doesn't conform to the rules of supply and demand. Grace isn't cheap -- it's expansive. God doesn't "step in between the sinner and the survivor." God lives in between the sinner and the survivor, because God lives in our relationships. God's justice is restored relationship.

Yes, forgiveness involves all parties -- not just three people -- because sin is systemic. For real reconciliation to occur, all must be reconciled -- not just the one "sinner."

 

[Katzpur]

Meshak, I asked you a question a few pages back and haven't yet seen an answer. Perhaps you just overlooked it.

Not everyone resurrected will be saved. It seems to be saying everyone will be resurrected to be judged.

But then what is going to happen to those who aren't saved? I'm afraid I'm starting to get your posts mixed up with savagewind's. Do you believe that those who aren't saved will be condemned to Hell forever, or simply go out of existence?

 

[savagewind]

grace isn't a commodity, so it doesn't conform to the rules of supply and demand. Grace isn't cheap -- it's expansive. God doesn't "step in between the sinner and the survivor." god lives in between the sinner and the survivor, because god lives in our relationships. God's justice is restored relationship.

Yes, forgiveness involves all parties -- not just three people -- because sin is systemic. For real reconciliation to occur, all must be reconciled -- not just the one "sinner."

ok

 

[sojourner]

Salvation is not a reward. Life is. How does one get life if not saved?

Nothing is a "reward," for "reward" implies that we are the effectors. We are not. Life, salvation, grace, and reconciliation belong to God. We can participate, or not.

 

[savagewind]

To teach YHVH forgives all sins unconditionallycheapens or distorts forgiveness from the victim's pov. No?

 

[Meshak]

Salvation is not a reward. Life is. How does one get life if not saved?

Way to go sister!

 

[savagewind]

Nothing is a "reward," for "reward" implies that we are the effectors. We are not. Life, salvation, grace, and reconciliation belong to God. We can participate, or not.

The whole thread you have been saying nobody will not participate. How do you say it is possible to not participate?

Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize. 1 Corinthians 9:24
OK, not reward, prize. Better?

1017 brabeíon(from 1018 /brabeúō, "act as an umpire") – properly, the prize awarded to a victor, i.e. the reward (recognition) that follows triumph.

 

[savagewind]

Way to go sister!

Thank you . I don't get many of those.

 

[Meshak]

Originally Posted by Katzpur
But then what is going to happen to those who aren't saved?

What did Jesus say?

He says: "for God so love the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life".

Non-believers will perish. so simple.

 

[sojourner]

The whole thread you have been saying nobody will not participate. How do you say it is possible to not participate?

Not all of us do participate now, do we? Or else evil wouldn't exist. What universalism says is that God will wait and search until all are found, and all are included.

If you remember, I also said that, when confronted by perfect life and perfect love, and given a choice between that and the loneliness of our own selfishness, we would all choose life.